Views from Mormon (LDS) (1075 views) (Closed for Posting) Subscribe   
  From:  NEWSAINT1   6/16/2003 10:13 am  
To:  ALL   (1 of 596)  
 
  628.1  
 
If you want to discuss the Mormon religion. Maybe you would rather do it here. Obviously you don't mind making a fool out of yourself in the LDS forum, but maybe you might act like an adult here with your peers watching. 

You said that Mormonism is the same as the Muslim religion and claimed them both to be anti-semetic. My religion is not anti-semetic first of all, and second of all it is strange that you think it o.k. to be anti-muslim and anti-mormon. How hypocritical is that. 

We are taught to build up others and help those who are lost, not to bash what they hold dear and make up lies about what they believe. The savior taught us to communicate with love and understanding, not ignorance, arrogance, and lies. 

You said that we believe women cannot gain salvation without a man just like the Muslim religion. - You are wrong. The requirements for men and women are the same. "man is not without the woman, nor the woman without the man" is what Jesus said. 

You asserted that we worship Joseph Smith Jr. instead of Jesus Christ. - You are wrong. I won't even qualify that claim with an answer it is so pathetic. 

You came on there like a coward with no real argument or intelligence, spouted off a few random websites that are just as baseless as yourself, and continued spouting off more lies on top of the old ones. When you were called on your lies, you pretended like you didn't say them and made up new ones. You are not the type who admits it when you are wrong. 

If anyone wants to see what a fool your forum host made of himself, go to post 243 in the "Why Christians will Never believe Mormon" thread found on LDS Apologetics on About.com 2637.243 And hurry up, before I get kicked out of here. 

-Stephen 

Note I have to keep editing out the Mormon liks that they had Agreed not to post on this forum but after they post them I delete them and they come back and add them again and also alter the dates on the edit by line to look like I edited after they edited it.

David



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Edited 6/16/2003 2:02:15 PM ET by NEWSAINT1 

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Edited 7/27/2003 8:32:46 PM ET by David (DAVIDABROWN) 


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Edited 8/21/2003 4:46:20 PM ET by David (DAVIDABROWN) 
  
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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    6/16/2003 1:52 pm  
To:  NEWSAINT1   (2 of 596)  
 
  628.2 in reply to 628.1  
 
Hi,

 

You and everyone else are more than welcome to post here.

 

I would be more than happy to carry on our Mormon discussion on this forum and I think that this is an easier forum to navigate as the LDS  Debate forum is loaded with pop-ups and advertisements.

 

Form reading several of you smear postings on my forum I gather that in your opinion I was wrong to go to the LDS  Debate forum to debate, silly me,  next time I post a new topic Ill go over to your other LDS forum an post there.

 

God Bless you,
David



David A. Brown
Basic Christian: Forum
www.BasicChristian.org

 
  
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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    6/16/2003 1:59 pm  
To:  NEWSAINT1   (3 of 596)  
 
  628.3 in reply to 628.1  
 
BTW, you have stated that Only a Married Man & Woman together can achieve the highest level of Mormon Heaven.

 

It will be a real surprise to most Christians to know that neither Jesus nor the Apostle Paul are in the Highest Mormon Heaven since neither were married at least for certain Jesus was never married.

 

Who needs the Cross of Jesus for entrance into Heaven, when all you really need to do is become a Mormon.

 

So the Mormon concept of Heaven Really is a dating game.

 

God Bless you,
David



David A. Brown
Basic Christian: Forum
www.BasicChristian.org

 
  
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  From:  NEWSAINT1   6/16/2003 2:43 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (4 of 596)  
 
  628.4 in reply to 628.3  
 
BTW, you have stated that Only a Married Man & Woman together can achieve the highest level of Mormon Heaven. 
<<<It will be a real surprise to most Christians to know that neither Jesus nor the Apostle Paul are in the Highest Mormon Heaven since neither were married at least for certain Jesus was never married.>>>> 

Prove that Jesus wasn't married. His parents lived by the letter of the Hebrew law, which included arranging marriage for their children. Paul may very well accept an eternal mate during the millenium. I can't prove Jesus was married, but you cannot prove he wasn't. 

<<<Who needs the Cross of Jesus for entrance into Heaven, when all you really need to do is become a Mormon.>>> 

Once again you misrepresent our beliefs. Are you saying that we deny Christ's atonement? You really have no shame do you. Aside from any religious debate, does your faith teach you to lie about others and misrepresent what they really believe. Christianity is in a sadder state than I thought it was. 

<<<So the Mormon concept of Heaven Really is a dating game>>> 

Heaven doesn't really begin until AFTER the Millenium. All of the dating and marrying will be done before that time. 

-Stephen 

 
  
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  From:  NEWSAINT1   6/16/2003 3:04 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (5 of 596)  
 
  628.5 in reply to 628.2  
 
<<<Form reading several of you smear postings on my forum I gather that in your opinion I was wrong to go to the LDS  Debate forum to debate, silly me, next time I post a new topic Ill go over to your other LDS forum an post there.>>> 
Please. You didn't go there to debate. A debate requires responses. You did not respond nor acknowledge that you were wrong on many counts. How do you expect to debate this way. I told you to pick one topic, start a thread, and then we had a debate. You continued to spout off more crap on top of the old. Here is the first thing you put. 

"Muslim (Islam) and Mormonism (LDS) are very similar 
Is it just me or does any one else Recognize the similarities between Muslim and Mormonism? 
The concept of Heaven for both Islam and Mormonism are basically the same. Both believe heaven to be some type of brothel where droves of women are there for their various whims. To both of them the rewards of heaven are sexual and physical; not Godly and not Spiritual. 
Jesus taught: 

Matthew 22:29,30 Jesus answered and said unto them, "Ye do err, not knowing the Scriptures, nor the power of God. For in the resurrection they (People) neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven. 

Both Islam and Mormonism each came basically from one man each. Islam - Mohammed and Mormonism (LDS) - Joseph Smith. 

Both came long after Jesus walked the earth. Muslim 700 A.D. Mormonism 1800's A.D. 

Both originated outside of Israel by anti Jewish men. Islam - Saudi Arabia, Mormonism - New York, USA. 

Both are Strict Legalistic systems. 

Both are Strict Political systems. 

Both believe and follow Revenge, Lying and Killing as a way to further their cause. 

Both deny that women posses the ability of eternal salvation. Muslims - that women do not live eternally like men do and therefore treat women accordingly here on earth. Mormons - that women can only receive their highest salvation by being married and submitted to a Mormon man, the marriage must take place in a Mormon Temple where the women is given a secret password that her husband if pleased by her will use to grant her entrance into his paradise. 

Both deny the Deity of Jesus. Muslims - believe that Jesus is only a Prophet, and Mormons - believe that Jesus is only a man just like Adam and every other man. Neither acknowledge Jesus as the Manifestation of God that Jesus claimed to be. 

The writings of both are plagued with Errors and inconsistencies. 

And much, much, more ... 
Islam and Mormonism have Nothing to do with Christianity and much to do with each other. 
God Bless You, 
David A. Brown" 

 
  
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  From:  NEWSAINT1   6/16/2003 3:09 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (6 of 596)  
 
  628.6 in reply to 628.2  
 
Then you recieved responses in which every single one of your claims was refuted and answered. Such as this one from Roy: 
David- The concept of Heaven for both Islam and Mormonism are basically the same. Both believe heaven to be some type of brothel where droves of women are there for their various whims. To both of them the rewards of heaven are sexual and physical; not Godly and not Spiritual. 

Roy- Actually this is untrue. Yes Mormons believe in the eternal family, but certainly not whoredom. Can you provide any evidence for your claim? The scripture says nothing outside of the fact that people cannot get married in Heaven, a belief that the LDS hold, but this only applies if you believe marriage is a form of a brothel. 

David- Both Islam and Mormonism each came basically from one man each. Islam - Mohammed and Mormonism (LDS) - Joseph Smith. 

Roy- A little lesson for you. Christianity came from one man, Jesus. So this statement really has no bearing on anything. Mormonism also came from one man, Jesus. The book was translated by Joseph Smith and he, and many other prophets have added revelations through God, but similar stuff is in the Bible as well. 

David- Both came long after Jesus walked the earth. Muslim 700 A.D. Mormonism 1800's A.D. 

Roy- Do you believe Christianity started the day Jesus arrived? It was 365 AD that the Bible in it's current form was put together. How old are the baptist? Protestants? Pentecost? 

David- Both are Strict Legalistic systems. Both are Strict Political systems. 

Roy- As opposed to what? 

David- Both believe and follow Revenge, Lying and Killing as a way to further their cause. 

Roy- It's kind of Ironic that you are posting something written by a liar who is criticisizing others for lying. Do you have proof of these claims? 

David- Mormons - that women can only receive their highest salvation by being married and submitted to a Mormon man. 

Roy- What does this tell you about the Author? This is true, except for the submitted part, however, this does not apply only to women. 

David- Mormons - believe that Jesus is only a man just like Adam and every other man. Neither acknowledge Jesus as the Manifestation of God that Jesus claimed to be. 

Roy- Somebody left the crap machine on high. Mormons do not believe God and Jesus tobe the same being, but do recognize Jesus as a god. I'll give you a good refernce for that claim. 

David- The writings of both are plagued with Errors and inconsistencies. 

Roy- And the Bible is not? All scripture was written by the hand of man, therefore, will contain errors. 

I could easily point out that an F-150 has more in common with a Jag than an F-250. Both the F-150 and Jag have tires, an engine, etc, etc, etc... But that does nothing to prove my claim unless I state the differences between the F-150 and the 250. Stating similarities between Mormonism and Muslims, even if a bunch of lies, does nothing to prove your point that Mormons are not Christian. 

If you are interested in learning the truth, then we can have a discussion. If you are interested in promoting poorly written crap like the above, then I have nothing else to say. I hope you are here to learn the truth as the purpose of all religion should be to seek the truth. 

Roy 




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Edited 8/21/2003 4:50:33 PM ET by David (DAVIDABROWN) 
  
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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    6/16/2003 3:12 pm  
To:  NEWSAINT1   (7 of 596)  
 
  628.7 in reply to 628.4  
 
Yes I can prove that Jesus was not married here on earth!

 

Jesus does have an Arranged Marriage, arranged by His Father.

 

The entire Christian Church is the Bride of Jesus and it is not the blasphemous physical marriage that Mormons and Muslims are so eager to indulge in.

 

2 Corinthians 11:2 For I (Apostle Paul) am jealous over you (Church) with godly jealously: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.

 

Revelation 22:17 And the Spirit and the Bride say come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him who is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

 

Silly Mormon!

 

God Bless you,
David



David A. Brown
Basic Christian: Forum
www.BasicChristian.org

 
 
From:  NEWSAINT1   6/16/2003 3:59 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)     
 
    
 
<<<The entire Christian Church is the Bride of Jesus and it is not the blasphemous physical marriage that Mormons and Muslims are so eager to indulge in.>>> 
You didn't prove a damn thing by that post. Do you actually think you just proved Christ wasn't married? Why don't you try using real proofs. In fact, why don't you show me where the Bible says "physical marriage" is "blasphemous." The Bible clearly states that marriage is ordained of God. Scott wanted to have this debate on the other forum, but you kept throwing baseless crap around and probably got kicked out. He wrote: 

"One of the fundamental doctrines of Mormonism is the eternal family. We believe that this world is patterned after the Heavenly world, and we are simply practicing in this life that which will be eternally enjoyed provided the faithful have the ordinances necessary and live lives qualifying them for such precious blessings. 

Your contention that there is no such eternal unit is based completely on Matthew 22:30 and it's mirrored passages in Luke. As has been demonstrated both in the KJV and in the original Greek, the passage does not say marriage relationships do not exist in Heaven, but that no one marries in Heaven. Latter-day Saints do not believe that anyone actually marries in Heaven. We believe marriage is an earthly ordinance and must be done here. We believe those who were sealed in the Temple here on earth, and live faithful to their covenants with God, continue their family relationships in Heaven. 

We believe that if you to choose to wait until after the resurrection to seek eternal marriage, it is too late and you will spend eternity as a serving angel. 

For those who did not have the opportunity for eternal marriage in mortality, God will make allowances. Mormon doctrine, then is in accordance with this interpretation of scripture. 

There is, however, ample evidence of the concept of eternal marriage contained within the Bible. It is important to recognize that one verse of scripture does not define all eternal truth and to properly understand the scriptures, one must bring all relevant passages into the discussion so that context plays the role it's designed to play. 

In Genesis 2:18 God said: "...It is] not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him." 

Please note that God did not say that it was not good for man to be alone on earth or during his mortal life or with any other qualification. God said it is not good for man to be alone... period. 

A little further in the chapter God commands Adam and Eve and all men and women, to become one flesh. (v. 24). The Hebrew term used for "one flesh" is echad or . Strong's (0259) is clear in the definition. It means one, once and for all time, never to be apart. 

God also makes a declarative statement that not only is marriage acceptable, but it is good. To remain single and alone is not good. Does heaven contain good or evil things? If heaven contains good things, then it must contained married couples, since marriage has been defined by God himself as good. 

Now I would direct you to Ecclesiastes 3:14: 

"I know that, whatsoever God doeth, it shall be for ever:" 

After God created Eve, He married her to Adam. This was done in the Garden of Eden before the Fall when Adam and Eve were immortal beings. God intended that they be married forever. 

Then we come to the passage I previously cited in another post. Jesus said: 

"Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder." (Matthew 19:6) 

Eventually, however, Adam and Eve fell through their disobedience and became mortal and allowed death into the world. Were it not for the Atonement of Christ Adam and Eve would have been forever separated from each other and from God after they died. 

If the Atonement is not powerful enough to restore the eternal marriage of Adam and Eve, then it is not infinite and eternal. In which case, no one has any hope of salvation because an infinite and eternal Atonement was not made. Further, if the Atonement was not powerful enough to restore the eternal marriage of Adam and Eve, then that means the purposes of God have been frustrated eternally, since he intended from the beginning for them to be eternally married. 

I believe that the Atonement of Jesus Christ was/is infinite and eternal, and because of it, the promise of salvation and eternal marriage is extended to all. We will all be resurrected. Those who became "one flesh" through eternal marriage will rise in the resurrection as one flesh, even eternally married. 

Finally, when considering Matthew 22:30; remember that Christ is addressing this statement of doctrine to the Sadducees. His response came after they asked Him what they thought was a trick question concerning the brothers and the woman. It is crucial to understand that the Sadducees did not believe in the resurrection, immortality, or eternal marriage. His answer to them must be understood in that context. 

Before someone learns advanced gospel principles, like eternal marriage, it is necessary for him to master the basic ones like the resurrection: 

"For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which [be] the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat." (Hebrews 5:12) 

Unless one understands and accepts the basic principles of the gospel, he or she is not capable of understanding, much less appreciating, the more advanced concepts. 

"Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you." (Matthew 7:6) 

It is clear from these Biblical passages that Jesus did not believe that all things should be taught to all people. 

Because the Sadducees rejected the simple doctrine of the resurrection, there was no need to explain the advanced doctrine of eternal marriage, for how can one accept the realities of resurrected life before one accepts the resurrection itself? Considering how unreceptive his audience was to the basic concept, Jesus must have decided that this was not the appropriate time to give a full discourse on eternal marriage. This understanding of scriptural development is understood by both Jews and Christians alike. For example, Jewish theologians have struggled to explain why there is no clear teaching about the resurrection and afterlife in the Old Testament. Moses Maimonides, one of the most famous Jewish medieval philosophers, answered the question this way: 

"Simply put, the answer is that the people of that age were not ready to accept that doctrine. They did not believe in miracles and in prophecy, only in the predictable course of nature. Teaching them about the miracle of resurrection would have led to its rejection and even to the rejection of revelation as a whole." (Summary of Maimonides explanation as found in Gillman, N., The Death of Death: Resurrection and Immortality in Jewish Thought. Vermont: Jewish Lights, 1997, p. 162.) 

It is absolutely true that the doctrine of eternal marriage is ambiguously taught in the Bible. This is one of the reasons the Restoration was needed, along with it's clarified prophetic teachings. However, there are strong implicit teachings on eternal marriage in the Bible if one studies that sacred work in totality and context. 

Please note that I used only non-LDS, sources, except for the Bible and no so-called Christian sources other than the same Bible. 

In your rebuttal, I would expect the same rules to be followed. 

Your opinion is allowed but support, except that found in the Bible, must come from non-Christian sources. Logical conclusions can and should be developed without fallacious argumentation. 

Scott" 




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Edited 6/16/2003 7:01:47 PM ET by NEWSAINT1 
From:  David (DavidABrown)    6/16/2003 4:29 pm  
To:  NEWSAINT1   (9 of 596)  
 
  628.9 in reply to 628.8  
 
I think that my points are being well made otherwise why did you resort to a bevy of bad words in your reply.

 

Im thankful for your continued posting because the differences between Christianity and Mormonism are becoming even more evident.

 

Christianity the Bible, does not teach that unmarried people become Servant Angels (slaves), (serving who?), in Heaven while married people go off to do the nasty up in heaven. I suppose that singles are up there changing your bed sheets and diapering your babies, while the Noble Marrieds reign and rule but between intercourse of course. I guess the Apostle Paul and everyone else who was unmarried are now Servant Angels. The (LDS-Mormon) version of heaven really is weird actually bizarre.

 

Im certain that I like the True Bible version of Heaven much better.

 

God Bless you,
David



David A. Brown
Basic Christian: Forum
www.BasicChristian.org

 
  
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  From:  NEWSAINT1   6/16/2003 4:45 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (10 of 596)  
 
  628.10 in reply to 628.9  
 
Wow! You must have actually read the first two paragraphs. Now I wonder if you can finish the whole post. Scriptural evidence was employed as well as logic and reason. As opposed to statements like: 
"in Heaven while married people go off to do the nasty up in heaven." 

Mormon doctrine has nothing to do with sexual relationships in Heaven. Once again you twist and lie about something you clearly know nothing about. Where do you get off saying that Mormons believe that we will have sex in heaven? 

Considering your behavior, I don't think you deserve to serve God in heaven or on earth. I on the other hand, am willing to do both. 

-Stephen
 
  
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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    6/16/2003 4:52 pm  
To:  NEWSAINT1   (11 of 596)  
 
  628.11 in reply to 628.10  
 
Ok, I guess that in your Mormon heaven you will populate your planet by handshaking.

 

God Bless you,
David



David A. Brown
Basic Christian: Forum
www.BasicChristian.org

 
  
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  From:  NEWSAINT1   6/16/2003 5:06 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (12 of 596)  
 
  628.12 in reply to 628.11  
 
Physical children are formed on this earth during mortality sexually. There is no doctrine on how spiritual children are formed or created. I doubt that we could understand it anyway. However, I assume that since physical children are formed physically, spiritual children are formed spiritually. 
You do realize that we are sons and daughters of God. This is clearly taught in the Bible you profess to believe in. 

<<<Ok, I guess that in your Mormon heaven you will populate your planet by handshaking.>>> 

Temple ceremonies are purely symbolic, and we consider such things sacred. However, it seems that you have no qualms about ridiculing and misrepresenting what other people find sacred, so this is no surprise. 

First you claim that we believe that God gives more advantage to men in salvation. You were wrong and could not admit it. 

Second, you clearly don't understand Christian theology because you don't understand that Heaven and the re-birth of the earth in it's celestial state does not begin until after the Millenium. Read revelations buddy. 

Third, you claim that we believe that there will be sex in heaven. You, again, are wrong and you won't admit it. 

Fourth,you ridicule our sacred temple ceremony and trample it under your feet. It is no wonder Christ told us not to cast our pearls before swine. 

-Stephen 



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Edited 6/16/2003 8:08:50 PM ET by NEWSAINT1 
  
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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    6/16/2003 5:29 pm  
To:  NEWSAINT1   (13 of 596)  
 
  628.13 in reply to 628.12  
 
Hi,

 

In all fairness I do read and study the Bible almost daily which in time does including the Old Testament, the New Testament and the Book of Revelation.

 

Physical people will continue to populate the Kingdom of God throughout the Millennial reign of Jesus Christ but then afterwards in the new creation there is NO indication that Spiritual Contact will take place.

 

On earth we Christians are Children of God after death - in heaven we will be Sons of God there is never any indication that Sons of God create offspring, this is bad doctrine.

 

Im surprised that you would so harshly state that I havent read Revelation. I have many writings on End Times and an End Times book is in the works so next time before you are so quick to accuse maybe you should check your facts first.

 

PS. It is Revelation (singular) i.e. The Revelation of Jesus Christ; Revelation 1:1, if you want me to read something else Revelations Im not sure what you are suggesting that I should read.

 

God Bless you,
David



David A. Brown
Basic Christian: Forum
www.BasicChristian.org

 
  
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  From:  NEWSAINT1   6/16/2003 6:15 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (14 of 596)  
 
  628.14 in reply to 628.13  
 
In all fairness? Oh ... now you want to have a discussion. Good maybe we can come to a good understanding. 
<<<Physical people will continue to populate the Kingdom of God throughout the Millennial reign of Jesus Christ>>> 

I agree. 

<<< but then afterwards in the new creation there is NO indication that Spiritual Contact will take place.>>> 

What do you mean there will be no Spiritual Contact after the new creation? Do you have scripture to back that up or are you making more baseless assertions? 

<<<On earth we Christians are Children of God after deat - in heaven we will be Sons of God there is never any indication that Sons of God create offspring, this is bad doctrine. >>> 

There is not any indication that there is any difference between "Children of God" and "Sons of God" except "Children" includes both males and females while "Sons" are male. Where exactly do you get this? Point out some specific scriptures so I can see that you aren't just making stuff up as you go along. 

<<<Im surprised that you would so harshly state that I havent read Revelation. I have many writings on End Times and an End Times book is in the works so next time before you are so quick to accuse maybe you should check your facts first.>>> 

Yeah. I was really harsh wasn't I. And then you have the gall to tell me to check my facts after you have just made so many false claims about the LDS faith without checking "your facts first." 

<<<if you want me to read something else Revelations Im not sure what you are suggesting that I should read.>>> 

Cute. Even though we both know exactly what I meant. And this coming from you who posted this comment about Islam and Mormonism: 
"Both originated outside of Israel by anti Jewish men. Islam - Saudi Arabia, Mormonism - New York, USA." Shortly after ... you blatently lied about my religion by stating that we deny the diety of Jesus Christ "like Islam." You are a liar. We certainly do not deny the diety of Jesus Christ and Joseph Smith was not anti-semetic. 

Jesus was talking about you when he said "And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brothers eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?" 

-Stephen 




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Edited 6/16/2003 9:23:46 PM ET by NEWSAINT1 
  
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  From:  NEWSAINT1   6/16/2003 8:03 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (15 of 596)  
 
  628.15 in reply to 628.13  
 
<<<On earth we Christians are Children of God after death - in heaven we will be Sons of God>>> 
According to the Bible, this is how it goes. Genesis mentions the "sons of God". 

Gen 6:2 That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose. 

You state that only in heaven we will be "sons of God", but Genesis clearly calls them "sons of God" back in ancient times. So what exactly are you trying to say? I hope your book isn't as confusing and twisted as your posts are. 

Here is some more for ya ... Job 38:1-7 

THEN the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said, 
Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge? 
Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou me. 
Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding. 
Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it? Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof; When the morning stars asang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy? 

God laid the foundations of the earth. Where were we? We were with Him, and we chose Jesus Christ as our Savior (1 Peter 1:20). In verse 7, God called us the sons of God before the foundation of the world, and we shouted for joy when the plan of happiness and the plan of salvation was laid out before us. He said,"declare, if thou hast understanding." So do you understand? Clearly the "sons of God" existed before the creation of the earth. Just as they did in Genesis 6:2 after the fall of Adam and Eve. Those sons of God, who shouted for joy in the pre-mortal existance, were living upon the earth, gaining physical bodies and mortal experiences before their death when "... shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it." Ecc. 12:7 After that, the resurrection, and after the resurrection, the Millenium, and after the Millenium, the "new creation" as you call it. 

<<<there is never any indication that Sons of God create offspring, this is bad doctrine. >>> 

On what do you base good and bad doctrine anyway? ... the Bible? You certainly don't demonstrate this. Earth is created in the image of Heaven, and Families are a reflection therof. Don't sons have sons and daughters, and those sons and daughters have sons and daughters, etc. Scott explained this. Also, Scott demonstrated in the previous post (I doubt you fully read it), that Christ did not cast his pearls before swine in the Bible, knowing that people would not be ready to recieve all things. You can compare yourself to the Sadducees in this regard, as you reject the prophets of God, which is the same as rejecting God himself, even Jesus. I doubt that you have even looked into my religion with an honest heart, let alone investigate Mormon Apologetics, which is extensive (more and more as the evidence mounts). "Losing the Battle and Not Knowing It" is a recent observation by a prominent evangelical. First, I suppose you must learn to listen to what others have to say instead of arrogantly thinking you know all there is to know. 

-Stephen 

P.S. Along with the fact that we have much to back up our doctrines, our members are converted through prayer, through the Holy Spirit, through God & his scriptures, and his prophets. Read Moroni chapter 10. 

This is how the church of Christ grows. Not by lying about other peoples beliefs in order to try and scare them away. You use scare tactics like using the word "cult". You have a lot to learn about God and our Savior.



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Edited 8/21/2003 4:52:38 PM ET by David (DAVIDABROWN)

From:  Minister Falcon (OSMFalcon)     6/16/2003 10:04 pm  
To:  NEWSAINT1    
 
    
 
Hi NewSaint1,

There is something you may want to look at in the bible that may give you a little more insight in the Christian understanding that Jesus remained single.

There are several scriptures that cross reference John 1:29 which says The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him and saith, Behold the Lam of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.  

In Numbers 28:3 its says: And you shall say to them, 'This is the offering made by fire which you shall offer to the LORD: two male lambs in their first year without blemish, day by day, as a regular burnt offering. 


Blemish or in the KJV it is spot, means: tamiym -- OT:8549 in the concordance:

complete, whole, entire, sound 

a) complete, whole, entire 
b) whole, sound, healthful 
c) complete, entire (used of time)
d) sound, wholesome, unimpaired, innocent, having integrity 
e) what is complete or entirely in accord with truth and fact (neuter adjective/substantive)
(from Thayer's Greek Lexicon and Brown Driver & Briggs Hebrew Lexicon)

Here is the cross-reference list I found concerning the Behold the Lamb of God:  

Genesis 22:7-8, Exodus 12:3-51, Numbers 28:3-10, Isaiah 53:7, John 1:36, Acts 8:32, 1 Peter 1:19, Revelation 5:6, Revelation 5:8, Revelation 5:12-13, Revelation 6:1, Revelation 6:16, Revelation 7:9-10, Revelation 7:14, Revelation 7:17, Revelation 12:11, Revelation 13:8, Revelation 14:1, Revelation 14:4, Revelation 14:10, Revelation 15:3, Revelation 17:14, Revelation 19:7, Revelation 19:9, Revelation 21:9, Revelation 21:14, Revelation 21:22-23, Revelation 21:27, Revelation 22:1-3

These scriptures proves that Jesus had to be single without blemish, and innocence [that is not knowing a woman].  So therefore He was neither a fornicator or an adulterer, nor was He married.  

Let's look at Matthew 1:18 which tells us:  Now the birth of Jesus Christ was as follows: After His mother Mary was betrothed to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Spirit. 

Mary was impregnated by the Holy Spirit even though she was betrothed to Joseph. He did not have intercourse with her nor did the Holy Spirit.  But by the Holy Spirit she was impregnated supernaturally so as to keep her virginity in tact. [Luke 1:34]   It wasn't until after the birth did Joseph 'know' her, in the biblical sense. The evidence is in Matthew 1:25 and in Matthew 13:55-56.  His brothers were James, Joses, Simon and Judas and His sister, which were not named in verse 56.

There are obligations under marriage, and are considered inferior to our duty to God. [Deuteronomy 13:6-10; Matthew 19:29; and Luke 14:26] It does not make marriage bad, but in the Jewish tradition, marriage takes you away from God, however, not completely.  But a man must please his wife, and provide for his wife and children.  When a person is single and is able to serve God it is completely with the whole heart and whole soul without concern for those they leave behind.  Jesus had to serve this way, or He would have been in violation to the Law of Marriage and its prerequisites. 

The Sadducees did not believe in the resurrection.  They came to Jesus and asked him questions about marriage after death.  They posed a synopsis of a man marrying multiple times after multiple wives died.  After all the pairs had died, they asked who wife will she be in heaven.  Jesus explains marriage after death to us in Matthew 22:29-32: 
29   Jesus answered and said to them, "You are mistaken, not knowing the Scriptures nor the power of God. 
30   For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels of God in heaven. 
31   But concerning the resurrection of the dead, have you not read what was spoken to you by God, saying, 
32  'I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob'? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living."
  

So we see here and physical marriage is not binding in heaven.  There is the physical marriage and the spiritual marriage.  Jesus is the spiritual bridegroom and we, the church are the Bride of Christ.  As the OT does not favor divorce, nor does it favor multiple marriages even though it happened in the OT, it is not looked upon by God with any favor.  Jesus could not be married because He could not incur any sin nor any favor for sinning.  He had to be blameless and spotless or the sacrifice on the cross with His pure blood would not have been pure, but tainted.  He is the finally sacrifice for our sins.  There is no other way except the way of the Cross to enter into covenant with God.  It has to be a blood covenant which was by the Lamb that reconciled us to God.  Jesus fulfilled the law of sacrifice.  After that day, the Lord did not receive another blood sacrifice on the altar in the Holy of Holies.  It was completed with the blood shed on the cross.

Here is Paul's take on marriage.  He explains it very firmly which seems to be contrary to some of your religious teachings. 

Matthew 22:28-32
 29 Jesus answered and said to them, "You are mistaken, not knowing the Scriptures nor the power of God. 
30 For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels of God in heaven. 
31 But concerning the resurrection of the dead, have you not read what was spoken to you by God, saying, 
32'I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob'? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living."

The angels in heaven are sexless, meaning without means of procreation.  Procreation was made for the earth and marriage was made for procreation.  There are no reasons to keep the marriage intact in heaven since it is not necessary again. 

Then the question might be posed what about the family?  Since family has its needs and disciplines in training a child, procreation, and other duties to each other, it seems that all of that will be done away with in heaven.  Does that mean we won't be reunited.  No, I don't believe so, but I do believe that if God has taken away the marriage system, He is also taking away that which comes from the marriage system, that is family structure.  However, that does not mean that there won't be a reunion or a relationship.  I does mean that it will be altered significantly and it won't distress not one of us while we enjoy our stay in heaven with each other. 

1 Corinthians 7:7-8
7  For I wish that all men were even as I myself.  But each one has his own gift from God, one in this manner and another in that. 
8  But I say to the unmarried and to the widows: It is good for them if they remain even as I am; [that is single, for Paul was single so he could serve God completely unimpeded].

1 Corinthians 7:24-40
24 Brethren, let each one remain with God in that state in which he was called.
25 Now concerning virgins: I have no commandment from the Lord; yet I give judgment as one whom the Lord in His mercy has made trustworthy. 
26 I suppose therefore that this is good because of the present distress--that it is good for a man to remain as he is: 
27 Are you bound to a wife? Do not seek to be loosed. Are you loosed from a wife? Do not seek a wife. 
28 But even if you do marry, you have not sinned; and if a virgin marries, she has not sinned. Nevertheless such will have trouble in the flesh, but I would spare you. 
29 But this I say, brethren, the time is short, so that from now on even those who have wives should be as though they had none, 
30 those who weep as though they did not weep, those who rejoice as though they did not rejoice, those who buy as though they did not possess, 
31 and those who use this world as not misusing it. For the form of this world is passing away. 
32 But I want you to be without care. He who is unmarried cares for the things of the Lord--how he may please the Lord. 
33 But he who is married cares about the things of the world--how he may please his wife. 
34 There is a difference between a wife and a virgin. The unmarried woman cares about the things of the Lord, that she may be holy both in body and in spirit. But she who is married cares about the things of the world--how she may please her husband. 
35 And this I say for your own profit, not that I may put a leash on you, but for what is proper, and that you may serve the Lord without distraction. 
36 But if any man thinks he is behaving improperly toward his virgin, if she is past the flower of youth, and thus it must be, let him do what he wishes. He does not sin; let them marry. 
37 Nevertheless he who stands steadfast in his heart, having no necessity, but has power over his own will, and has so determined in his heart that he will keep his virgin, does well. 
38 So then he who gives her in marriage does well, but he who does not give her in marriage does better. 
39 A wife is bound by law as long as her husband lives; but if her husband dies, she is at liberty to be married to whom she wishes, only in the Lord. 
40 But she is happier if she remains as she is, according to my judgment--and I think I also have the Spirit of God. 


Unfortunately I did not get to read your whole message.  But I would like to add a couple of things here.  First of all, Brigham Young was my relative of mine according to our genealogy.  Second, recently I had a wonderful encounter with some Mormon elders that came to my door. I understand that they have beliefs of being born again and spirit-filled with evidence of speaking in tongues.  This surprised me because about 10 years ago, they did not believe this way in our area.  Times change, and God opens the minds of the ones whom He loves to the truth of His word.

There is only one sect of Christianity that believes in Joseph's writings of the Book of Mormons.  I have read the book of Mormons and its teachings.   I also have read  the added books of the Apocrypha which Catholicism professes to be a part of the Holy Bible.

Now according to the bible it says that the word of God can not be added to or taken from.  [Deuteronomy 4:2 and 12:32, and Revelations 22:18-19]  For this reason I do not endorse putting these two books as companions to the Holy Bible.    

Now to further comment, the Book of Mormons and the Apocrypha may be inspired by God, written by man.  It may be prophecy or it may be history but if the prophecy or history can not be proven by the Holy Bible or line up with the Holy Scriptures, then I would be suspect of those books.   This same rule applies to any book written by man and inspired by God.  The bible has to be interpreted by scripture.  For scripture is truth; truth interprets truth. 

The Holy Scriptures are clear how they were written and who is behind the writings.

2 Timothy 3:16-17
16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, 
17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work. 

If you believe that the Holy Bible is the word of God you can not say it has flaws or is in error because of man.  Those who wrote this book had fruits of righteousness, and evidence of the power of the Holy Spirit.  God made His Word known without error because He is a God of Truth and would not let His Truth be tainted by man's inability.  All through scripture, God has made man able even though He was not talented, he was made talented by the unction of the Lord.  Not everyone has this ability, this is why we are told to test the spirit of one talking or writing. [1 John 4:1 and 1 Thessalonians 5:21].

I wrote this not to debate just to inform and bring peace to you, amen.  If you find that this is not to your understand and want to debate, please submit scripture for my review.  Amen brother Stephen ~Minister Falcon 

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Edited 6/18/2003 4:30:11 AM ET by OSMFALCON 

From:  NEWSAINT1   6/16/2003 10:45 pm  
To:  Minister Falcon (OSMFalcon)    (17 of 596)  
 
  628.17 in reply to 628.16  
 
First of all. I don't see where marriage is a sin ... not anywhere in the Bible. Second of all, in the Jewish tradition, rabbis did not gain respect unless they were married. Third of all, Jesus never said that physical marriages were not binding in heaven. I will refer you back to post 8 of this thread, where my friend Scott explained that quite well. 
Other problems 

-God himself ordained marriage and said that what He binds on earth will be bound in heaven. This does not contradict what Jesus said to the Sadducees. In fact, it is exactly correct. (Again, go back to post 8 in this thread.) 

-You said "The angels in heaven are sexless, meaning without means of procreation" 

On what scripture do you base this assertion? 

-You said "nor does it favor multiple marriages even though it happened in the OT, it is not looked upon by God with any favor." 

-God himself gave multiple wives according to the old testament. It would seem that there was a purpose in that. 

-Paul seems to be the only one against marriage, not Jesus. It is not surprising that Paul condoned and admonished people to live his life-style. He also thought that the second coming would happen within his lifetime. 

-Now according to the bible it says that the word of God can not be added to or taken from. [Deuteronomy 4:2 and 12:32, and Revelations 22:18-19] For this reason I do not endorse putting these two books as companions to the Holy Bible. 

Wait a second. You are breaking your own rule. Deuteronomy says not to add or take from Deuteronomy. Revelation says not to add or take from Revelation. If a precious ancient text was found in the middle east and shown to be authentic. Would you still reject it? Even if it supported everything that you believe? Deuteronomy says to not add to scripture, but you still accept everything after Deuteronomy don't you? See where the contradiction lies. 

-Stephen 

P.S. LDS always believed in tongues. Look at the articles of faith Joseph Smith published before he was killed. 





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Edited 6/17/2003 1:47:37 AM ET by NEWSAINT1 
  
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  From:  Minister Falcon (OSMFalcon)     6/16/2003 11:38 pm  
To:  NEWSAINT1   (18 of 596)  
 
  628.18 in reply to 628.17  
 
Stephen,

I reread my post and I did not indicate that marriage was sin.  Perhaps I missed it but if you can find where I said it was sin, please quote it for me.

Jesus is not the only one who spoke or the only one that God used to express His truth.  We must look to the whole of the Holy Bible concerning marriage.  I gave you scriptural references that showed the truth of what God's word states even though they were not spoken by Jesus.  Have you taken this into account when you wrote your post?

Problems as you stated:

1.  Binding and loosening:  Matthew 16:19
The phrase "to bind" and "to loose" was often used by the Jews. It meant to prohibit and to permit. To bind a thing was to forbid it; to loose it, to allow it to be done. Thus, they said about gathering wood on the Sabbath day, "The school of Shammei binds it" - i.e., forbids it; "the school of Hillel looses it" - i.e., allows it. When Jesus gave this power to the apostles, he meant that whatsoever they forbade in the church should have divine authority; whatever they permitted, or commanded, should also have divine authority-that is, should be bound or loosed in heaven, or meet the approbation of God. They were to be guided infallibly in the organization of the church:

1. by the teaching of Christ, and,

2. by the teaching of the Holy Spirit.

This does not refer to persons, but to things - "whatsoever," not whosoever. It refers to rites and ceremonies in the church. Such of the Jewish customs as they should forbid were to be forbidden, and such as they thought proper to permit were to be allowed. Such rites as they should appoint in the church were to have the force of divine authority. 

Accordingly, they commanded the Gentile converts to "abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood" (Acts 15:20); and, in general, they organized the church, and directed what was to be observed and what was to be avoided. The rules laid down by them in the Acts of the Apostles and in the Epistles, in connection with the teachings of the Saviour as recorded in the evangelists, constitute the only law binding on Christians in regard to the order of the church, and the rites and ceremonies to be observed in it.  This has nothing to do with marriage.  

2.  Angels:  Matthew 22:30; Marek 12:25 and Luke 20:35 say just about the same thing; they are immortal and are not to marry, nor are given in marriage.  They are spirit not mortals but they are immortal.  Not with bodies such as our bodies, but heavenly bodies [Colossians 1:16].  They do not procreate.

3.  Multiple marriages:  Think about what it means to be an adulterer. 1 Corinthians 7 is a discourse by Paul concerning marriage.  It clearly states one wife, one husband, not multiple wives or multiple husbands for that would be adultery.  Jesus states in Luke 16:18 he was against divorce.  It is made clearer in Mark 10:2-12.  And still further it states in Matthew 19:3-10.  Then the question remains:  How can one man be married to more than one woman and remain ONE in the eyes of God.  The explanation of ONE is ONE man and ONE woman, not multiple sex partners.  It states clearly that Jesus called this adultery.

Marriage is a covenant before God.  Malachi 2:14-16.

Jeremiah 3:1 calls this behavior polluted and playing the harlot with many lovers.  

Even though there were multiple marriages in the OT God called it sin.  Nehemiah 13:23-27.

==========

You said:  -God himself gave multiple wives according to the old testament. It would seem that there was a purpose in that.

Where is your scripture to support this?

==========

As far as Paul is concerned, he was comparing the aspects of being single or widowed to that of being married.  His points are valid as far as serving the Lord.  His discourse was not about marriage or being single but in serving the Lord.  

=============

Your last statement concerning breaking my rule.  I was referring to books outside of the Holy Bible, not books within the Holy Bible.  The Holy Bible is indeed made up of 66 books which comprises the ONE book.  As far as other writings, whether they validate scripture or not, makes no difference to me.  I defer to the Holy Bible because it has been tested by scholars and scientists and have been found to be the Truth.  No other book can be scrutinized so closely and pass the test of time like the Holy Bible has.  

There are commentaries that I like and refer to often, but I have found that there is error in some of them.  I have found modern and ancient writings to be truthful, but not full of truth and therefore error has been present.  I have not found the Holy Bible to be in error ever.  

Again the rule of understanding the Holy Bible is to interpret scripture with scripture, that is truth with truth.  No opinion of man or outside writings can compare to this rule.  It is a wise rule and sound to the workings of the heart of wisdom.

===========

That is interesting concerning your PS, it was not demonstrated nor believed in the groups in this area.  But then that happens with many Christian groups that the doctrine of Jesus Christ is not fully enforced in one's faith. ~Minister Falcon
  
 
  
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  From:  NEWSAINT1   6/17/2003 12:28 am  
To:  Minister Falcon (OSMFalcon)    (19 of 596)  
 
  628.19 in reply to 628.18  
 
<<<I reread my post and I did not indicate that marriage was sin. Perhaps I missed it but if you can find where I said it was sin, please quote it for me.>>> 
You implied it by saying that Jesus could not be married because he needed to be sinless. 

<<<Bind and loose: ...>>> 

You don't believe in the priethood authority do you? 

<<<Angels: Matthew 22:30; Marek 12:25 and Luke 20:35 say just about the same thing; they are immortal and are not to marry, nor are given in marriage. They are spirit not mortals but they are immortal. Not with bodies such as our bodies, but heavenly bodies [Colossians 1:16]. They do not procreate.>>> 

I realize that they are immortal. You said that they are niether male nor female. That my friend, you cannot back up. There are two things to consider here. First, these marriages that the Sadducees were describing were not eternal marriages. They were operating under the lesser law of the Aaronic priesthood. (plus they were obviously in a state of apostacy. They rejected the resurrection altogether.) Second, according to Mormon doctrine, one must have recieved the new and everlasting covenant of marriage(and keep the covenant) in order to recieve exaltation. (these hypothetical angels did not) 

<<<Multiple marriages: Think about what it means to be an adulterer.>>> 

Simple. Having sex with someone when you are not married to them. Are you calling all of the patriarchs in the OT adulterers. Only in some cases does the OT call it a sin. In others (such as David) God GAVE wives to his chosen servant. 

<<<As far as Paul is concerned, he was comparing the aspects of being single or widowed to that of being married. His points are valid as far as serving the Lord. His discourse was not about marriage or being single but in serving the Lord. >>> 

In the context, Paul was fighting against apostacy. He didn't want to see people marry outside of Christianity. I can see that much. Still, Paul had some different perspectives concerning some issues. (Some are better than others such as his mission to the Gentiles. Good work Paul.) Clearly there was tension between him and the other apostles. Paul is the only one who appears to preach against marriage. 

<<<The Holy Bible is indeed made up of 66 books which comprises the ONE book.>>> 

There was no such thing as the New Testament when Revelation was written. How can Revelation be refering to that? Or how can Deut. be referring to the following 64 books when they didn't exist yet either? C'mon now. 

<<<I defer to the Holy Bible because it has been tested by scholars and scientists and have been found to be the Truth. No other book can be scrutinized so closely and pass the test of time like the Holy Bible has.>>> 

This could start a whole new thread. (maybe later we can do a Bible inerrancy thread). However, what I am concerned about now is that you defer to the Holy Bible "because it has been tested by scholars and scientists." Could you show me verses from the Bible that state that this is the way to find truth? As for me, I like the beginning of James chapter 1. 

<<<That is interesting concerning your PS, it was not demonstrated nor believed in the groups in this area. But then that happens with many Christian groups that the doctrine of Jesus Christ is not fully enforced in one's faith.>>> 

Our understanding of tongues may be different than yours. But our religion is hardly floppy from place to place. I suppose that Basic Christianity is more stable from place to place, denomination to denomination? Perhaps you simply misunderstood, or those you talked to don't know the basic Articles of Faith which were written by Smith in March, 1842. The relevant one is #7 

-Stephen 





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Edited 6/17/2003 6:14:14 PM ET by NEWSAINT1 

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Edited 8/21/2003 4:53:55 PM ET by David (DAVIDABROWN) 
  
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   From:  Minister Falcon (OSMFalcon)     6/17/2003 12:54 am  
To:  NEWSAINT1   (20 of 596)  
 
  628.20 in reply to 628.19  
 
Stephen,

Please provide Holy Bible scriptures for your opinions as I have done.  And please stay with the Holy Bible and not any other book as I am not willing to debate your doctrine, but discuss the Holy Bible only.  That would be grounds for dispute and I am not willing to dispute anyone.

==========

You said I said:  You implied it by saying that Jesus could not be married because he needed to be sinless. 

I didn't imply it, I supported it with multiple scripture.  So therefore it is reasonable to ascertain that by the multiple scriptures given, it all points to why Jesus had to be pure without a wife, without a care for her, or without a need for her.  One is no longer innocent if one is married and having relations.  Marriage doesn't make one sinful, but as the lambs of the pasture were innocent that is they were not knowledgeable of intercourse, so was the Lamb innocent not knowledgeable of a woman or wife in the physical sense.

=========

A spirit does not have a physical body but they do have a spiritual body, therefore they have no sex organs nor can they procreate; that is not their function.  Only mortals have a body and when resurrected they will have a glorified body.  And they will be like the angels as scripture says without earthly needs of procreation.  I provided multiple scriptures that support each other in this understanding.

========

You said:  Are you calling all of the patriarchs in the OT adulterers. Only in some cases does the OT call it a sin. In others (such as David) God GAVE wives to his chosen servant. 

Support your position with multiple scripture.

=============

You said:  In the context, Paul was fighting against apostacy. He didn't want to see people marry outside of Christianity. I can see that much. Still, Paul had some different perspectives concerning some issues. (Some are better than others such as his mission to the Gentiles. Good work Paul.) Clearly there was tension between him and the other apostles. Paul is the only one who appears to preach against marriage. 

The issue we were facing here is one of marriage vs. singleness and widowhood.  Again Paul stated he was not against marriage but stated that singleness is better in service to the Lord.  Reread the scriptures and look only for those statements he speaks about concerning marriage, singleness and widowhood.  He does say if one wants to marry, that they should better not to burn in the flesh for want of a spouse.  So clearly he was NOT against it but encouraged others to be mindful of the drawbacks of serving the Lord while being married too.  I think that the multiple scriptures makes this real plain.

==========

You said:  There was no such thing as the New Testament when Revelation was written. How can Revelation be refering to that? Or how can Deut. be referring to the following 64 books when they didn't exist yet either? C'mon now. 

Have you not read in the Holy Bible that the headings are called books?  The book of Job, the Book of Isaiah and the book of Revelations?  There are 66 books comprising the Holy Bible.  Count them. ~Minister Falcon

 
 
  
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From:  David (DavidABrown)    6/17/2003 7:25 am  
To:  NEWSAINT1   (21 of 596)  
 
  628.21 in reply to 628.14  
 
Here is another Bible verse that Explains the Marriage Relationship that God has with His people.

 

Jeremiah 3:13 Turn, O backsliding children, saith the LORD; for I am married unto you:

 

The Mormon concept of people remaining married in Heaven is a total perversion of what the Bible teaches about Gods Glorious plan for mankind. What he Mormons are teaching is actually what the Bible calls unfaithfulness & whoredom.

 

Jeremiah 3:20 Surely as a wife treacherously departeth from her husband, so have ye dealt with Me, O house of Israel, saith the LORD.

 

Verse 9 compares Spiritual Idolatry to infidelity against God.

 

God Bless you,
David



David A. Brown
Basic Christian: Forum
www.BasicChristian.org

 
  
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  From:  ScottQuantz   6/17/2003 12:04 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (22 of 596)  
 
  628.22 in reply to 628.13  
 
You: "In all fairness I do read and study the Bible almost daily which in time does including the Old Testament, the New Testament and the Book of Revelation." 
Me: Really? You could have fooled me by the way you're posting. 

You: "Physical people will continue to populate the Kingdom of God throughout the Millennial reign of Jesus Christ but then afterwards in the new creation there is NO indication that Spiritual Contact will take place" 

Me: So now you're attempting to discredit something by that which the Bible DOESN'T say? 

By that standard, you don't exist. 

The Bible actually, strongly suggests eternal familial relationships. It also verifies we are children of God. We are His children, He is our Father. 

The Lord also promised the faithful and the righteous who endure, that they would receive all... mark that... ALL, the Father hath. Christ commanded His disciples to replicate the Father in their own lives when He commanded that we become perfect as is the Father. If God is perfect and He is our spiritual Father and we are to be like Him, then logic follows that there will be familial relationships through eternity and that be too, can become fathers and mothers of spirits. 

But this is another argument. I am still waiting for your proof that Christ wasn't married when He was on earth. 

I would hope that you would find the proof in the Bible because you have claimed to be so expert on the subject. Yet the sources you cited have nothing to do with whether Jesus was married or whether He wasn't. 

I, on the other hand, believe I can prove Jesus was married but both the biblical record, the cultural history and the social demands of the time. 

You: "On earth we Christians are Children of God after death - in heaven we will be Sons of God there is never any indication that Sons of God create offspring, this is bad doctrine." 

Me: Please cite the source. 

The Book of Genesis states that there were sons of God on earth before the flood (Genesis 6:4). Is the Bible wrong and you correct? The Book of Job speaks of sons of God being present before the world was created (Job 1:6; 2:1). Is the Bible wrong three times? 

Paul disagrees that we become children of God only after death (Romans 8:16; Galatians 3:26) as does John (1 John 3:10; 1 John 5:2). 

You: "Im surprised that you would so harshly state that I havent read Revelation. I have many writings on End Times and an End Times book is in the works so next time before you are so quick to accuse maybe you should check your facts first." 

Me: I don't think his statement was harsh. But mine will be as I have little patience for pretenders to knowledge and understanding. Rather than simply telling me you've read Revelation... prove your points from the book. 

You: "It is Revelation (singular) i.e. The Revelation of Jesus Christ; Revelation 1:1, if you want me to read something else Revelations Im not sure what you are suggesting that I should read." 

Me: Are you suggesting this is the first time you have ever seen someone refer to John's prophecies as the "Revelations" or that you are simply too dense to make the connection? 

This is a classic fallacious technique used to attempt to denigrate the knowledge and intelligence of one's opponent by pointing out meaningless errors that are common among the majority but which everyone relates as far as the meat is concerned. But since you want to be pedantic about it, there is really no such book of "Revelation". It's original name is The Apocalypse. It took an apostate Catholic to change it. 

Scott 



 
  
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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    6/17/2003 12:40 pm  
To:  ScottQuantz   (23 of 596)  
 
  628.23 in reply to 628.22  
 
Marriage is a picture of the relationship between God and His Church.

 

Ephesians 5:29-32 .. even as the Lord [nourisheth & cherisheth] the Church: for we are members of His body, of His flesh and of His bones. For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh. This is a Great Mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the Church.

 You have posted nothing to refute the Holy Union between Jesus Christ and His Church/Bride.

 

God Bless you,
David



David A. Brown
Basic Christian: Forum
www.BasicChristian.org

 
  
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  From:  ScottQuantz   6/17/2003 12:43 pm  
To:  Minister Falcon (OSMFalcon)    (24 of 596)  
 
  628.24 in reply to 628.16  
 
You: "These scriptures proves that Jesus had to be single without blemish, and innocence [that is not knowing a woman]. So therefore He was neither a fornicator or an adulterer, nor was He married." 
Me: The Bible never associated sex within marriage or marriage itself as sinful. Not once. Every passage you cited can only support a contention if you believe there is something sinful about marriage and/or sexual relations within a marriage. 

Frankly, nothing could be further from the truth. Both (marriage and sex within it) were ordained by God from the beginning and to suggest otherwise is pure idiocy. 

You: "Mary was impregnated by the Holy Spirit even though she was betrothed to Joseph. He did not have intercourse with her nor did the Holy Spirit. But by the Holy Spirit she was impregnated supernaturally so as to keep her virginity in tact. [Luke 1:34] It wasn't until after the birth did Joseph 'know' her, in the biblical sense. The evidence is in Matthew 1:25 and in Matthew 13:55-56. His brothers were James, Joses, Simon and Judas and His sister, which were not named in verse 56." 

Me: I am not sure what point you're trying to make here... but there is a lot of fallacy in the statement. 

You don't know how Mary was impregnanted. But it certainly wasn't done by the Holy Ghost and your passage proves it. It says: 

"...The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God." (Luke 1:35) 

This passage again confirms there are three distinct individuals in the Godhead. 

The Holy Ghost overcame Mary to allow her to survive the presence of the Highest... God the Father. The Greek word in this case is "Hupsistos" meaning the most high God... certainly not the Holy Ghost (pneuma). 

To state that the Holy Ghost is the father of Christ is to call Jesus Himself a liar. 

You: "There are obligations under marriage, and are considered inferior to our duty to God. [Deuteronomy 13:6-10; Matthew 19:29; and Luke 14:26] It does not make marriage bad, but in the Jewish tradition, marriage takes you away from God, however, not completely. But a man must please his wife, and provide for his wife and children. When a person is single and is able to serve God it is completely with the whole heart and whole soul without concern for those they leave behind. Jesus had to serve this way, or He would have been in violation to the Law of Marriage and its prerequisites." 

Me: Seldom have I read so much garbage in a single paragraph> 

Deuteronomy 13:6-10 deals with family members serving other Gods and has nothing at all to do with marriage. Matthew 19:29 does NOT suggest marriage is considered inferior to anything. It merely states that nothing should be more important than our devotion to God. And Luke 14:26 simply repeats that fact. To even cite the Luke verse is to indicate you believe suicide is what Christ wants from us; that He wants us to break one of the Ten Commandments and to ignore the second great commandment altogether. 

"If any [man] come to me, and hate not his FATHER, and MOTHER, and wife, and CHILDREN, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and HIS OWN LIFE also, he cannot be my disciple." (emphasis is mine) 

I love it when you guys twist the truth to a perverted end to justify your corrupted dogma. 

You are also suggesting Christ broke His own rule when you say "When a person is single and is able to serve God it is completely with the whole heart and whole soul without concern for those they leave behind." 

While suffering on the cross, the Lord said very little. But in that anguish he defied your reasoning when he spoke to his mother and said: "Woman, behold thy son!" as He pointed to John the Beloved and then to that same John said: "Behold thy mother!" The passage then says: "And from that hour that disciple (John) took her (Mary) unto his own [home]." (John 19:26-27) 

The Lord seems a little concerned for those He was leaving behind... Some example, huh? 

You: "Jesus had to serve this way, or He would have been in violation to the Law of Marriage and its prerequisites." 

Me: Bull... 

Your litany runs on replete with misrepresentation of scripture and clouds of corrupt dogma, make bold but uncomfirmed statements about angels (sexless? Prove it.), etc. etc. 

Your dogma is simply unverifiable from the scriptural record. It has no basis in fact and is about as far from the truth as any I have ever seen. 

Marriage was ordained and instituted by God. God married Adam and Eve and gave them the first commandment ever given to mortals on this earth... to multiply and replenish it. And you have the nerve to suggest sex within marriage is sinful. It's not but you are for suggesting it. 

Scott 



 
  
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  From:  ScottQuantz   6/17/2003 12:51 pm  
To:  Minister Falcon (OSMFalcon)    (25 of 596)  
 
  628.25 in reply to 628.20  
 
You: "Please provide Holy Bible scriptures for your opinions as I have done. And please stay with the Holy Bible and not any other book as I am not willing to debate your doctrine, but discuss the Holy Bible only. That would be grounds for dispute and I am not willing to dispute anyone." 
Me: Who said you had control over what's offered in evidence? 

If you were really interested in being fair (which you are not) you would either accept anything offered at least for consideration or you would eliminate the Bible as evidence as well. Until you can prove the Bible to be perfect and with error, you cannot suggest it as valid evidence. 

Then there is that little habit you have of commenting on what you THINK the Bible means. If you want to rely only on the Bible, prove from it, for example, that angels in heaven are sexless. If you cannot, to make such a statement is fallacious. 

You don't really want to debate anything. You want to pontificate and to do so you are forced to limit the evidence and then to interpret that evidence the way you want to. 

I hope Newsaint isn't foolish enough to fall for such a one-sided "debate". 

Scott 



 
  
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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    6/17/2003 12:55 pm  
To:  ScottQuantz   (26 of 596)  
 
  628.26 in reply to 628.24  
 
Im pretty sure Omsfalcon is married and Im certain that he is not against marriage, execept the false teachings the Jesus was married to Mary Magdalene or whoever. 

 

You are off on the wrong track and attempting to bludgeon the wrong topic.

 

God Bless you,
David



David A. Brown
Basic Christian: Forum
www.BasicChristian.org

 
  
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  From:  ScottQuantz   6/17/2003 12:57 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (27 of 596)  
 
  628.27 in reply to 628.23  
 
Your Ephesians passage means nothing except to support the divinity of marriage. Nowhere does it suggest Christ wasn't married. 
Nice try but no cigar. 

You: "You have posted nothing to refute the Holy Union between Jesus Christ and His Church/Bride." 

Me: I don't need to. I have no problem with the analogy (it is only an analogy). The analogy does nothing to refute whether Christ was married. 

Prove He wasn't. You made the claim now prove it or admit you were wrong. Then I will offer ample evidence that He was. 

Scott 



 
  
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  From:  ScottQuantz   6/17/2003 1:02 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (28 of 596)  
 
  628.28 in reply to 628.26  
 
You: "Im pretty sure Omsfalcon is married and Im certain that he is not against marriage, execept the false teachings the Jesus was married to Mary Magdalene or whoever." 
Me: Two things... Omsfalcon stated that marriage and sex within marriage is sinful. It was his/her contention that Christ was not married because such a relationship would have destroyed His innocence. That is a false teaching that cannot be supported in scripture. 

Secondly, prove Christ was not married. 

Scott 



 
  
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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    6/17/2003 1:06 pm  
To:  ScottQuantz   (29 of 596)  
 
  628.29 in reply to 628.28  
 
I already have.

 

It is obvious from your Full 1 Second look at my postings that you are not even reading let alone looking up or considering them.

 

You are just in machine mode programmed to say No.

 

Not very impressive.

 

God Bless you,
David



David A. Brown
Basic Christian: Forum
www.BasicChristian.org

 
  
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  From:  NEWSAINT1   6/17/2003 2:25 pm  
To:  ScottQuantz   (30 of 596)  
 
  628.30 in reply to 628.25  
 
<<<I hope Newsaint isn't foolish enough to fall for such a one-sided "debate". >>> 
Actually, I just got here, and it seems I have some catching up to do. I already stated that the scriptures he cited do not in anyway indicate that angels are sexless. I suppose that he would also suggest that the resurrected Jesus Christ was not male. 

-Stephen 

 
  
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  From:  NEWSAINT1   6/17/2003 2:57 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (31 of 596)  
 
  628.31 in reply to 628.23  
 
<<<You have posted nothing to refute the Holy Union between Jesus Christ and His Church/Bride.>>> 
Why would we refute something that we have nothing against. I am fully aware of God's relationship with his church. However, this analogy does not have much to do with the personal life of Jesus Christ between the ages of 12-30. (marriage does not necessarily mean sex) 

You offer no evidence that angels are sexless. Why do you think this? Our sex is part of who we are. Do we lose our identity in the next life? 

You claim that marriage would void the sinlessness and innocence of Christ while at the same time claiming that marriage is not a sin. This is contradictory. 1 Cor 11:11, Gen 2:24 

Look at Matt. Chapter 19 
5 And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh? 

6 Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder. 

God himself joins man and woman together, and "let not man put asunder." What makes you suggest that God would undo what He hath joined together? 

In the theory presented before me, it would seem that you are suggesting that if we were all to fulfill God's will perfectly, nobody would marry. This would also mean that nobody would procreate, and the human race would die out in one generation. 

-Stephen 



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Edited 6/17/2003 6:16:16 PM ET by NEWSAINT1 
  
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  From:  Minister Falcon (OSMFalcon)     6/18/2003 1:44 am  
To:  NEWSAINT1   (32 of 596)  
 
  628.32 in reply to 628.17  
 
Hi Stephen,

You said: First of all. I don't see where marriage is a sin ... not anywhere in the Bible.

My point is not that marriage and relations in marriage is a sin.  My point is that because Jesus had to be innocent, marriage was not possible.  The explanation of the lamb in several scriptures was a picture of the Lamb of God.  I thought I expressed this well to you so that you would understand my point of innocence of Christ.  The explanation of the well documented scripture leads one to understand the innocence of Christ.  

When we look to Revelation we see no future aspect of a wife except the Bride of Christ which are the people of God who believe that Jesus Christ is Lord.  They make up the body of Christ with Him being the Head.

You said:   Second of all, in the Jewish tradition, rabbis did not gain respect unless they were married.

I agree that rabbis, that is, teachers of the Jewish doctrine were married.  They were single before they were married.  However, we are talking about the Lamb of God, the Son of God, a High Priest of God, the Rabbi of God and not an ordinary man who has no spark of the divine saved that which was breathed into him by the Holy Spirit.

You said:  Third of all, Jesus never said that physical marriages were not binding in heaven.

Did you not read the scriptures I provided for you concerning what the whole word of God says about marriage?  As I stated to you before, Jesus and the other apostles are to be revered in the same manner since Jesus gave all authority to the 5 fold ministry writers of the NT and His disciples.  

God bless Stephen, ~Minister Falcon

 

 
 
  
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From:  Minister Falcon (OSMFalcon)     6/18/2003 2:49 am  
To:  ScottQuantz    
 
    
 
Hello ScottQuantz,

You said:  The Bible never associated sex within marriage or marriage itself as sinful. Not once. Every passage you cited can only support a contention if you believe there is something sinful about marriage and/or sexual relations within a marriage. 

The Holy Bible does not say the word 'sex' instead it uses delicate terms such as 'know' someone.  Or in the case of lesbianism or homosexuality it will be used as 'unseemly'.  In the case of sex outside of marriage it is called 'fornication' and in marriage with another partner other than the spouse it is called 'adultery'.  Where you get the idea that marriage is sinful from any of my posts has to be something extraordinary in your heart.  Certainly having sex in one's marriage is beautiful and lovely as the Lord had intended it to be.  But sinful?  That was not implied at all by me.  

My point is not that marriage and relations in marriage is a sin.  My point is that because Jesus had to be innocent, marriage was not possible.  The explanation of the lamb in several scriptures was a picture of the Lamb of God.  I thought I expressed this well so everyone would understand my point of the unblemished innocence of Christ.  The explanation of the well documented scripture leads one to understand the innocence of Christ. 

You said concerning the Immaculate Conception of Mary:   I am not sure what point you're trying to make here... but there is a lot of fallacy in the statement. You don't know how Mary was impregnated. But it certainly wasn't done by the Holy Ghost and your passage proves it.  The Holy Ghost overcame Mary to allow her to survive the presence of the Highest... God the Father. The Greek word in this case is "Hupsistos" meaning the most high God... certainly not the Holy Ghost (pneuma). To state that the Holy Ghost is the father of Christ is to call Jesus Himself a liar. 

My point was to another poster and reading his message and following my answer would have given you a better understanding of why this discourse was stated.  To state 'impregnated 'is a gentle term to express Mary's condition as a means to express her innocence as opposed to the normal relations of a [single or married] couple to conceive a child.  The scripture verse you quoted Luke 1:35 is stated more clearly in the NIV Holy Bible:  The angel answered, 'The Holy Spirit will come upon you and the power of the Most High will overshadow you.  So the holy one to be born will be called the Son of God.'

I believe in the Godhead as being three in one Person.  They do nothing separate from each other but are integrated by Spirit forming a perfect unity and perfect union.  According to the scripture, the Holy Spirit is the messenger of the gift which came from the Most High.  He overshadowed her to give her the gift.  Does that make Him the father?  Of course not!  But it does make Him involved with the process of impregnation.  I did not assume or indicate that Mary had a normal impregnation.  It had to be divine and in God's way, not the human way of procreation.

You said:  Seldom have I read so much garbage in a single paragraph.

Perhaps you could talk to me with more respect, since this is the first time we have encountered each other.  I have not attacked, not called names, nor bashed anyone's post on this thread.  It is not appropriate Christian behavior to treat the brethren with such disdain.  Your lack of self-control is noted by this Minister and co-manager of this site and will not be tolerated here.  Please post with proper respect.  

If you want to refute these scriptures I provided or the statements of the scriptures themselves, then bring out the scriptures where you find exception.  I am willing to review your ideas but certainly will not state an opinion without backing it up with scripture.  Let us speak in peace together and not in anger or cause reveling for we both know that is nothing more than the fruits of the flesh [Galatians 5].

Now you are correct that Deuteronomy 13:6-10 has to do with other gods...and the worship of other gods.  This is called adultery or whoredom.  The book of Hosea is a discourse on this type of whoredom that Israel committed against God. Gomer represented the people of God going after other lovers, that is other gods.  We are looking at 2 concepts here.  The action in the natural by Gomer against Hosea her husband and the action of the Bride of Christ [Jews] against God [Jesus] her Husband.  Deuteronomy 13:6-10 is just the beginning of the adultery or whoredom that the Jews were committing against God through the search for and worshipping other gods.

Matthew 19:29 has to do with leaving the family behind for His sake, that is to serve God.  And Luke 14:26 Jesus is speaking saying that we are to hate our family if we expect to be His disciple.  So the point of these scriptures is to say that one's duty is better fulfilled by being single as opposed to being married or attached to the family strings.  We are really saying the same thing only in different words.  And please, suicide?  Where did that come from?  

The twisting is yours, by the fact that you took the theme of another post of mine directed to an issued that another posted made and you have created this post to twist the sound scripture teaching.  It is not appropriate to take into account all that was said, responded to, and cited by only one poster.  You got a perverted view of the character of my post and responded to it in that manner.

You quoted me:  You are also suggesting Christ broke His own rule when you say "When a person is single and is able to serve God it is completely with the whole heart and whole soul without concern for those they leave behind." 

I am married and have parents and children.  I leave behind my duties as a parent and as a child to serve God.  Does that mean that I don't associate with my family or my parents?  Of course not!  It means that I put God first as my priority not my family as a priority.  Yet, I am limited because I do have obligations to fulfill as stated in the commandments to honor the parents, and to my children to raise them up in the admonition of the Lord and to my spouse with spousal responsibilities.  You can't look at scripture as how we modern-day people do.  We have to look at the Jewish thought and the customs of the times.  With the single person who has no obligations to husband or children have a greater service to be performed because of their availability to the Lord.  It makes sense that this is what is meant by Paul to serve as a single person is the better performance as compared to the married person.  He neither came against marriage but encouraged unmarried people to stay that way if they could to serve the Lord in a better capacity than a married person.

And Scott, please do not continue to speak on this forum with vanity or implied profanity.  It is not wise nor a promotion to peace.  God bless you ~Minister Falcon Co-manager of Basic Christian

 
From:  Minister Falcon (OSMFalcon)     6/18/2003 3:01 am  
To:  ScottQuantz   (34 of 596)  
 
  628.34 in reply to 628.25  
 
Scott,

You said:  Who said you had control over what's offered in evidence? 

I am the co-host or co-manager on this site.  That gives me the authority.  Plus I am an ordained Minister, pastor and flow in prophecy through the training and teaching of the Holy Spirit, inaugurated by man but ordained by the Father and released by His Son, Jesus.  

You said:  If you were really interested in being fair (which you are not) you would either accept anything offered at least for consideration or you would eliminate the Bible as evidence as well. Until you can prove the Bible to be perfect and with error, you cannot suggest it as valid evidence. 

Please.....are you a heretic?  Are you a Christian?  Or are you an Occultist? The Holy Bible is my reference and that's the rules for anyone that wants a discourse with me.  If you don't, that's your choice but then don't bother to come back here because I am not interested in the rantings and ravings of trollish people.  

This is not a debate nor is this discourse on my posts one-sided.  I use the Holy Bible and anyone else can use the same tool I do.  Because I don't want to use reference materials to support doctrine of other religions, that's my choice.  I am not forcing you to believe my faith's doctrine nor am I going to allow you to force me to submit to your doctrines teachings.  You have made this a doctrine affair and it is not for me.  I am used the Holy Bible as neutral ground since it is the source that I thought both of us used to gain knowledge.  I search for truth and I use that which I know to be the truth.  If this is not acceptable to you and you find exception to this then you can go elsewhere for debate and promoting your opinions and your doctrine.  I am not interested.  ~Minister Falcon
 
  
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  From:  Kellie Kennedy (Kelliegirl)   6/22/2003 12:44 am  
To:  NEWSAINT1   (39 of 596)  
 
  628.39 in reply to 628.8  
 
Ok, some basic Mormon 101 questions - please answer these questions if you don't mind; 

DOES the Mormon church teach that single/unmarried people cannot enter the "highest" realms of heaven? That is, MUST you be a married person to reach the highest level or whatever Mormons believe to be the highest level? What I THINK you're saying is that only *married* people (a husband and a wife) get to be in the highest ranks in heaven (or wherever). 

DOES the Mormon church teach/believe that being single is *displeasing* to God? I know you or someone else said marriage is "good". The emphasis on this seems to imply that singlehood is "bad" simply because "marriage" is "good". 

Where is your proof that Jesus was married? Don't you think that the burden of proof lies with you? If Jesus *wasn't* married, then your whole argument that marriage is a pre-requisite for entering the highest levels of heaven falls apart. 

Why did Mormons way-back-when take more than one wife? What happened to those marriages when it was outlawed? - Did those people just leave each other or were they still considered married in the eyes of the church? Does the Mormon church approve of plural marriages today? What would happen if the church instituted that again? 

Why don't Mormons drink tea? (Not sure if they do or don't, but I heard they don't.) 

Do Mormons arrange marriages for their children? 

Why were Blacks excluded from church leadership prior to the Seventies? 

I'm sure you can tell I'm clueless when it comes to Mormon teachings, so please explain these as if you're writing The Idiot's Guide To Mormonism. LOL. 

Thanks! 

Kellie 

 
  
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   From:  GatesFanLDS   6/22/2003 6:50 pm  
To:  Kellie Kennedy (Kelliegirl)   (40 of 596)  
 
  628.40 in reply to 628.39  
 
>>Ok, some basic Mormon 101 questions - please answer these questions if you don't mind; << 
Just so you know...I'm LDS...so I will try to answer them for you. IF you are really serious...try one of the LDS Forums to get more detailed answers. 

>>DOES the Mormon church teach that single/unmarried people cannot enter the "highest" realms of heaven? That is, MUST you be a married person to reach the highest level or whatever Mormons believe to be the highest level? What I THINK you're saying is that only *married* people (a husband and a wife) get to be in the highest ranks in heaven (or wherever). << 

To reach the highest level of the Celestrial kingdom...one must be sealed to their spouse. Now...like all things...God knows our hearts...and if for some reason...beyond our control...this was not something that was an opportunity for the person...then they will have the chance during the Millium. 

>>DOES the Mormon church teach/believe that being single is *displeasing* to God? I know you or someone else said marriage is "good". The emphasis on this seems to imply that singlehood is "bad" simply because "marriage" is "good".<< 

It all depends on your reason for being single. But the Chruch does NOT teach that being single is bad. 

>>Where is your proof that Jesus was married? Don't you think that the burden of proof lies with you? If Jesus *wasn't* married, then your whole argument that marriage is a pre-requisite for entering the highest levels of heaven falls apart. << 

There are various things that indicate that JEsus was married...but it is all supposition...there is no doctrine that states that he was. Although many inside and outside the Chruch, including me, beleive he was. 

>>Why did Mormons way-back-when take more than one wife?<< 

God asked them to. 

>>What happened to those marriages when it was outlawed? - Did those people just leave each other or were they still considered married in the eyes of the church? Does the Mormon church approve of plural marriages today? What would happen if the church instituted that again?<< 

All lawful sealings (when they happened) are valid in the eyes of GOd. 

>>Why don't Mormons drink tea? (Not sure if they do or don't, but I heard they don't.)<< 

We don't drink Black, Green, or white teas. This has been given by revelation to be against the Word of Wisdom...which is from God. We do drink herbal teas. 

>>Do Mormons arrange marriages for their children?<< 

Some members may...but it is in no way a church practice. 

>>Why were Blacks excluded from church leadership prior to the Seventies? << 

Because God said so...and God always has his reason. 

>>I'm sure you can tell I'm clueless when it comes to Mormon teachings, so please explain these as if you're writing The Idiot's Guide To Mormonism. LOL. << 

If you want any further explaination on any of the topics...just ask. If I can't answer...I'll find someone who can. :) 

 
  
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From:  NEWSAINT1   6/23/2003 11:48 am  
To:  Kellie Kennedy (Kelliegirl)   (41 of 596)  
 
  628.41 in reply to 628.39  
 
<<<Why did Mormons way-back-when take more than one wife? What happened to those marriages when it was outlawed? - Did those people just leave each other or were they still considered married in the eyes of the church? Does the Mormon church approve of plural marriages today? What would happen if the church instituted that again? >>> 
I would take a look at the "Abraham and his wives?" thread, we get into that a bit. Those were special circumstances and we don't expect, nor do any of us want it to be instituted again. 

<<<Do Mormons arrange marriages for their children?>>> 

No. The only arranged marriages that I am aware of is when a husband died in the early days of the church and the church leadership arranged for the widowed family to be supported by a new husband. 

Regarding the question about whether or not Jesus is married, well we don't have any information about the Savior's life from ages 12-32. Scott really wanted to present a case that Jesus was married, but Scott was removed from the forum and his posts were deleted. 

Those single folks who have not had the oppotunity to find an eternal companion will be given such an opportunity when appropriate. Also, those who have not heard the message of the gospel will be able to accept Christ's atonement in the spirit world. However, it is always best if we accept the gospel in this life and live by faith. This is how we learn and grow and progress. 

Marriage is very important. We learn how to share our lives with someone else and become one with somebody. When we have children, we have an opportunity to learn and grow even more. We gain a better understanding of how God feels about us, His children. 

-Stephen 

 
  
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  From:  NEWSAINT1   6/23/2003 11:58 am  
To:  Kellie Kennedy (Kelliegirl)   (42 of 596)  
 
  628.42 in reply to 628.39  
 
<<<Why were Blacks excluded from church leadership prior to the Seventies?>>> 
There are two schools of thought on this one. The church founder, Joseph Smith, ordained a black man (Elijah Abel) to the priesthood in the early days of the church. However, Brigham Young understood from scripture that the descendents of Ham were not to hold the priesthood until God allowed it. So either Brigham made a mistake, or it was really the will of God. I do not know the answer to this particular issue, and I may never know in this life, but the mistakes and sins of men will not hinder God's work. 

We are fully aware that there were many white males in this country who were racist, and yes, some of them were also Mormon. Yet you cannot hold a double standard against the LDS religion can you? African Americans were always able to be baptized members of the LDS faith and worship with us in our meetinghouses. This is more than many churches can admit. Yet they were not permitted to hold the priesthood until the 70's. 

Listen to what Joseph Smith was saying way back when it was not popular to say such things. 

1842: 

"I have advised (slaveholders) to bring their slaves into a free country and set them free--educate them--and give them equal rights." (Compilation on the Negro in Mormonism, p.40) 

1844: 

"They [Negroes] came into the world slaves, mentally and physically. Change their situation with the whites, and they would be like them. They have souls and are subject to salvation. Go to Cincinnati or any city, and find an educated Negro, who rides in his carriage, and you will see a man who has risen by his own mind to his exalted state of respectability." (History of the Church 5:217) 
He also said: 

"The Declaration of Independence 'holds these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal: that they are endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable rights; that among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness,' but, at the same time, some two or three millions of people are held as slaves for life, because the spirit in them is covered with a darker skin than ours...The Constitution of the United States of America meant just what it said without reference to color or condition, ad infinitum!" (Messages of The First Presidency 1:191-2) 

"Break off the shackles of the poor black man and hire him to labor like other human beings." (History of the Church 5:209) 

Is it any wonder that Joseph Smith was murdered not long after? He was a very unpopular fellow in Missouri, where slavery was on the verge of being either accepted or rejected by the state. 

-Stephen 

Here is more info if you are interested. It shows which scriptures caused the judgement and the controversy surrounding the history. 

http://missionaryhelper.com/blackmormon.htm 




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Edited 6/23/2003 4:07:52 PM ET by NEWSAINT1 
  
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  From:  Kellie Kennedy (Kelliegirl)   6/23/2003 5:58 pm  
To:  GatesFanLDS   (43 of 596)  
 
  628.43 in reply to 628.40  
 
But what if you just don't WANT to get married? Why should you be penalized for something that is a CHOICE (or SHOULD be a choice)? - unless you consider being single a "sin" or a fault. Why should getting into that high level of heaven as a single person be dependent on your reason for staying single? I haven't seen ANYWHERE in the bible where everyone was COMMANDED to get married. Maybe I missed it. It sounds like single people aren't as privileged as married people are. There must be something *wrong* with being single if they are (generally) disqualified from entering the top. I believe that a single person can learn to care, share, and live just as fully as a married person. 

Also, what's wrong with green, black, and white teas? And WHY did God ask them to take more than one wife? Your explanation didn't really shed much light on this. 

About those "sealed" plural marriages during the time the Mormon church allowed them; did those people continue to live together as a family (and as husband and wives) when *public* law made it illegal? Or did they say one thing to the authorities and another thing to the church? Sorry, but this issue still confuses me. 

Kellie
 
  
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  From:  Kellie Kennedy (Kelliegirl)   6/23/2003 6:02 pm  
To:  NEWSAINT1   (44 of 596)  
 
  628.44 in reply to 628.41  
 
I've heard about the 'baptism for the dead' thing before. What are your scriptures for that? 

Kellie
 
  
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  From:  Kellie Kennedy (Kelliegirl)   6/23/2003 6:08 pm  
To:  NEWSAINT1   (45 of 596)  
 
  628.45 in reply to 628.42  
 
Ok, so before that time a black man couldn't enter the priesthood. Does that also mean that because of that, they weren't allowed into that high level of heaven? Or is there a separate heaven for married blacks who were denied this privilege? Maybe you could go into greater detail as to WHY they were denied the priesthood? You said something about them being descendents 0f Ham. What happened to change that discrimination? 

Kellie
 
  
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  From:  GatesFanLDS   6/23/2003 8:43 pm  
To:  Kellie Kennedy (Kelliegirl)   (46 of 596)  
 
  628.46 in reply to 628.43  
 
>>But what if you just don't WANT to get married? Why should you be penalized for something that is a CHOICE (or SHOULD be a choice)?<< 
God sets things up. You can either do things Gods way or not...that includes marriage. Your choice. God is very up front with what happens if you comply or not. Plain and simple. 

>>- unless you consider being single a "sin" or a fault. << 

Again, depends on your reason for remaining single. 

>>Why should getting into that high level of heaven as a single person be dependent on your reason for staying single? << 

Ok, because it matters. Are you staying single because you are to selfish to share your life with another person...or are you single because you have never had the opportunity...or there is some valid reason for staying single. One reason that comes to mind is mental illness. 

>>It sounds like single people aren't as privileged as married people are. << 

God has told us that the man isn't without the woman or the woman without the man. 

>>Also, what's wrong with green, black, and white teas?<< 

Ask God. It's his council. Personal opinion is the fact that there are many toxins that are just not good for the body...but like Adam when the Angel asked him why he did something God commanded him to do...Adam simply said...Because God has commanded it. He didn't know all the ins and outs..the wheres or whys...just that God said so...and that was good enough for him. 

>>And WHY did God ask them to take more than one wife?<< 

To raise up a seed unto himself would be my guess, since that is the reason He gave for why one man would take more than one wife in the Book of Mormon. 

>>About those "sealed" plural marriages during the time the Mormon church allowed them; did those people continue to live together as a family (and as husband and wives) when *public* law made it illegal?<< 

You will have to ask someone who is much more versed in Chruch history. 

>>Sorry, but this issue still confuses me.<< 

Which issue...Plural marriage in general...or what happened after it was outlawed??
 
  
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  From:  NEWSAINT1   6/23/2003 8:47 pm  
To:  Kellie Kennedy (Kelliegirl)   (47 of 596)  
 
  628.47 in reply to 628.43  
 
God will never force anyone to do anything. However, He has a plan for us and He knows what we need to learn and grow. Marriage is ordained of God and families are an essential part of God's plan. Children are a gift from God as are all of our loving relationships. Let's say that someone cannot have children due to physical problems. Would God penalize that person? Certainly not. God is just and merciful and we simply have to trust that He will be fair. 
Marriage and baptism are earthly ordinances. They must and will be done on the earth before and during the Millenium before the "new creation" and Heaven resides in this sphere. If someone wanted desperately to fulfill God's will and share their life with someone else, but did not find someone before they died, then will they be denied all they could recieve? Certainly not. If Christ hand picked an eternal companion in the millenium for that person, would they deny what God knows would give them happiness? 

Just try your best to do God's will here and now, and trust in Him to do the rest. <All the issues regarding plural marriage will be resolved as well.> 

-Stephen 

P.S. The "word of wisdom" which fortells the dangers of certain harmful substances is found here. http://scriptures.lds.org/dc/89 

... And the polygamy issue is still being discussed on the "Abraham and his wives" thread. 



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Edited 6/24/2003 2:01:15 AM ET by NEWSAINT1 
  
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  From:  NEWSAINT1   6/23/2003 9:13 pm  
To:  Kellie Kennedy (Kelliegirl)   (48 of 596)  
 
  628.48 in reply to 628.45  
 
You may recall in the priesthood of the Old testament, that only the descendants of Levi could hold the priesthood. Blessings will not be witheld because of anything other than the righteousness of an individual. Why did God "discriminate" and only allow Levites to hold the priesthood? 
I imagine He has his reasons. 

Also, I think it is important for you to understand that the celestial kingdom (the highest kingdom) is basically made up of three divisions. Those who are unmarried can reside in the celestial kingdom but not in the highest division. This is a simplification of course. In reality it is probably more complicated. 

John 14: 2 
In my Fathers house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 

God knows us better than we do, and He is already preparing a place for us. This section explains the basic kingdoms of the Kingdom of God http://scriptures.lds.org/dc/76 

Cross reference with 1 Cor. 15 
39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds. 
40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. 
41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory. 
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: 

Another scripture describes an interesting experience where Paul describes someone who was caught up in the celestial kingdom or the third heaven. 

2 Cor. 12 
2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven. 

Now if there is a third heaven, I think it is logical to assume that there is a first and a second. 

-Stephen
 
  
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  From:  NEWSAINT1   6/23/2003 9:42 pm  
To:  Kellie Kennedy (Kelliegirl)   (49 of 596)  
 
  628.49 in reply to 628.44  
 
<<<I've heard about the 'baptism for the dead' thing before. What are your scriptures for that?>>> 
I can give you a few. 

1 Cor. 15: 29 
Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead? 

Here Paul is using baptisms for the dead as a proof of Christs resurrection. Just look at it in context. Many will suggest that it is a pagan ritual, but if that is the case why would Paul use it. Would this spirit filled apostle use a pagan ritual as evidence for the resurrection of our Lord and Savior? I doubt it. 

Consider these as well. 1 Peter 3 

18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: 
19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; 
20 Which sometimes were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water. 

During the three days between Christ's crucifixion and resurrection, he preached unto the spirits in prison. We call this realm simply "spirit prison". Paradise and spirit prison is where souls await the resurrection. (Another word for this place is Hades.) The next chapter says again. 

1 Peter 4 
5 Who shall give account to him that is ready to judge the quick and the dead. 
6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. 

Now, you must ask yourself, "Why would the gospel be preached unto those in the spirit prison?" The answer is simple. Everyone must have the opportunity to accept the atonement of our Savior. Were it not so, God is neither just nor merciful. Most people around the world never had the opportunity to hear the gospel, and some might suppose that these people are damned for eternity anyways. However, we know that they are preached the gospel in the spirit world. 

John 3: 5 
Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 

Baptism is essential. Like marriage, baptism is an earthly ordinance. They both must be done with a physical body in this physical world. Yet, like Christ's atonement, this work can be done for someone else. It is done in their behalf. Sealings and baptisms for the dead are done in our temples. Nobody will be witheld from the blessings of Christ's atoning sacrifice due to circumstances beyond thier control. This work will continue throughout the Millenium. 

Here is the prophetic vision: http://scriptures.lds.org/dc/138 

-Stephen 

P.S. I will post this on the "Why did God do it?" thread as well. It seems more appropriate there. 






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Edited 6/24/2003 12:47:27 AM ET by NEWSAINT1 
  
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  From:  GatesFanLDS   6/24/2003 10:41 am  
To:  NEWSAINT1   (50 of 596)  
 
  628.50 in reply to 628.47  
 
I should just let you take this...:) You explain much better. I have to try and get my view across with a 19month squirming in my lap...can't use the computer without him...it is against his law...LOL 
  
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  From:  NEWSAINT1   6/24/2003 12:53 pm  
To:  GatesFanLDS   (51 of 596)  
 
  628.51 in reply to 628.50  
 
I realize that this poster was probably left hangin' for a bit. I was gone all weekend. Thanks for helping me out. Take care of the little one : ) 
-Stephen
 
  
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  From:  R/C Floats (RachelsChild)   7/21/2003 3:58 pm  
To:  NEWSAINT1   (53 of 596)  
 
  628.53 in reply to 628.52  
 

Dear Newsaint1, 
Galatians 1:6-8 (NKJV) 

" I marvel that you are turning away so soon from Him who called you in the grace of Christ, to a different gospel. Which is not another: but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert (distort) the gospel of Christ. But even if we or an ANGEL (italics mine)from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed." 

The grace of Jesus Christ is not found in LDS doctrine. Joseph Smith (if he really did have an experience with a spiritual being) was seduced and deluded by Maroni into accepting another gospel. How sad to drive by LDS Temples and see Maroni at the top of the spire...maroni did not die for sinners. 

1 Timothy 3-4 

" As I urged you when I went to Macedonia- remain in Ephesus that you may charge some that they teach no other doctrine, nor give heed to FABLES and ENDLESS genealogies,(italics mine) which cause disputes rather then godly edification." 

May you find out what the true saving, loving, all encompassing gospel of who Jesus Christ really is. 

R/C 



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Edited 7/21/2003 7:02:26 PM ET by R/C Floats (RACHELSCHILD) 
  
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  From:  R/C Floats (RachelsChild)   7/21/2003 6:28 pm  
To:  Bob (BOBKATZHOST)    (58 of 596)  
 
  628.58 in reply to 628.55  
 
Hi Bob: 

Why do you want to be identified as or called a Christian? Why would Christian apply to LDS doctrine? Isn't Christianity something J. Smith didn't believe in anyway, needed to repudiate anyway? Isn't Latter Day Saints a more accurate descriptive of the revealed knowledge that was given to J. Smith? 

Certainly the Bible has many references to unbelief. Now if you mean by Scripture...Mormon scripture as well as the Bible, there can be no debate as christians don't believe in the BOM, or Pearl'....or D&C's etc. And as you folks don't believe the Bible is the true, (complete and w/out error)revealed Word of God, we have no common ground within Christianity. 

R/C
   628.80 in reply to 628.79  
 
Hi R/C,

Surperb Point!

I'd say you Won that One!

God Bless you,
David



David A. Brown
Basic Christian: Forum
www.BasicChristian.org

 
 
 
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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    7/21/2003 7:02 pm  
To:  R/C Floats (RachelsChild)   (59 of 596)  
 
  628.59 in reply to 628.58  
 
Hi R/C,

 

Good points although the term Saints would not apply to them in any case as Saints are Only the People who have been washed in the blood of Jesus and are cleansed of all their sins.

 

Mormons are still in Sin and therefore should be called Everyday Sinners or something of that sort.

 

God Bless you,
Davis



David A. Brown
Basic Christian: Forum
www.BasicChristian.org

 
  
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   From:  R/C Floats (RachelsChild)   7/21/2003 7:18 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (60 of 596)  
 
  628.60 in reply to 628.59  
 
Hi Dave, 

Agreed. We are all sinners til saved by grace and then saints becomes aplicable. Serious thought is it not? 


R/C 
" This is my story, to God be the glory! I'm only a sinner saved by grace. " 
 
  
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   Options  Reply DelFrom:  clrose1   7/22/2003 9:12 am  
To:  R/C Floats (RachelsChild)   (61 of 596)  
 
  628.61 in reply to 628.53  
 
NObody has claimed that Maroni (please correct your spelling to Moroni) is the savior to anybody. 
Certainly the grace of Jesus Christ is found all over the place in the LDS church. It is through His grace that all men can be saved by believing in Him and accepting His atonement. This is what is taught in the LDS church. You have chosen to reject this teaching of the LDS church. That is your choice. 

I know what the gospel is, and I live the gospel of Jesus the Christ.
 
  
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  From:  clrose1   7/22/2003 9:13 am  
To:  R/C Floats (RachelsChild)   (62 of 596)  
 
  628.62 in reply to 628.58  
 
Joseph Smith completely agrees with Christianity. 
LDS do believe that the Bible is the word of God. 
 
  
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  From:  clrose1   7/22/2003 9:13 am  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (63 of 596)  
 
  628.63 in reply to 628.59  
 
Even LDS are washed in the blood of Jesus. 
  
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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    7/22/2003 1:01 pm  
To:  clrose1   (64 of 596)  
 
  628.64 in reply to 628.63  
 
Aaaahhhhh negative the LDS are Deceived Phonies who worship a pretend Jesus with pretend doctrines and pretend covenants and you will have pretend results.

 

Reality belongs to the true Jesus of the Bible the Jesus that called people like you Mormons to be the brothers of Satan and you do not belong to God like we Christians do.

 

Revelation 2:9 .. and I (Jesus) know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.

 

I guess Jesus said it best and He knows who are His sheep and who are Satans.

 

David

 

 



David A. Brown
Basic Christian: Forum
www.BasicChristian.org

 
  
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  From:  clrose1   7/22/2003 1:28 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (65 of 596)  
 
  628.65 in reply to 628.64  
 
LDS have the true reality of Jesus the Christ 
  
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  From:  R/C Floats (RachelsChild)   7/22/2003 2:31 pm  
To:  clrose1   (66 of 596)  
 
  628.66 in reply to 628.62  
 
Are you serious??? If JS completely agreed with Christianilty there wouldn't be Mormonism.(or pologamy, or blood atonement or baptising for the dead etc.) and other strange practices/heresies.) 

Mormonism does not teach that the Bible is the real/living Word of God. ( as is, without error or to be added too) 

R/C 



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Edited 7/22/2003 5:41:17 PM ET by R/C Floats (RACHELSCHILD) 
  
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  From:  R/C Floats (RachelsChild)   7/22/2003 2:38 pm  
To:  clrose1   (67 of 596)  
 
  628.67 in reply to 628.61  
 
I have accepted the salvation Jesus Christ provided for me by dying for my sins on the cross....LDS has no saving grace to offer me. Mankind does not need a religious system (LDS) to find the true, free grace of salvation. 

For your own sake read the Bible as the only word from God and get away from JS's written works. 

R/C 

 
  
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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    7/22/2003 3:18 pm  
To:  clrose1   (68 of 596)  
 
  628.68 in reply to 628.65  
 
According to Jesus you are of Satan and that doesnt seem to bother you. 

 

You are one sad person!

 

Unless you think that you know more than Jesus does or you dont value His words.

 

In that case you are one Evil person!

 

David



David A. Brown
Basic Christian: Forum
www.BasicChristian.org

 
  
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  From:  pbarnes12   7/22/2003 10:20 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (69 of 596)  
 
  628.69 in reply to 628.64  
 
<<<I guess Jesus said it best and He knows who are His sheep and who are Satans.>>> 
That is right. Jesus does know, ... not you. Please do not pass judgement as to who goes to heaven or hell. Let God decide that. 

Although we may disagree with LDS doctrine, we are commanded to show the love of Christ to all and demonstrate His grace in our own lives. We should extend a helpful hand, not condemn or even ignore. We should rationally discuss with those who are lost and try to understand them so we can help them. 

This is one lesson that everyone needs to learn. The world's history and even Christian history has enough intolerance that led to horrible acts which should remind us to love and help others instead of alienating and pushing away, often to the point of violence. 

I have known my fair share of LDS, and in my experience, they are kind, loving, and generous folks. I see no reason to withold them the same courtesy while respectfully disagreeing with them at the same time. 

I have seen about enough bigotry by my fellow Christians to almost make me ashamed to call myself one. I have seen such un-Christlike behavior from "Christians" that it is no wonder that people will not accept the true gospel. 

It is my prayer that all mankind will learn to love the true and living God, and that everyone will come to the unity of the faith as described in the Holy Bible. This includes our Mormon neighbors and friends who only need some direction and love. 

Paul Barnes 
 
  
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  From:  Mosesconnors   7/22/2003 11:38 pm  
To:  pbarnes12   (70 of 596)  
 
  628.70 in reply to 628.69  
 
AMEN!!!!!!!!!!! 
  
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  From:  Minister Falcon (OSMFalcon)     7/23/2003 3:51 am  
To:  pbarnes12   (71 of 596)  
 
  628.71 in reply to 628.69  
 
Have you not read these scriptures?

Proverbs 19:18
Chasten your son while there is hope, and do not set your heart on his destruction. 


Hebrews 12:7-11
7 If you endure chastening, God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom a father does not chasten? 
8 But if you are without chastening, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate and not sons. 
9 Furthermore, we have had human fathers who corrected us, and we paid them respect. Shall we not much more readily be in subjection to the Father of spirits and live? 
10 For they indeed for a few days chastened us as seemed best to them, but He for our profit, that we may be partakers of His holiness. 
11 Now no chastening seems to be joyful for the present, but painful; nevertheless, afterward it yields the peaceable fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it. 


Revelation 3:19
As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten. Therefore be zealous and repent. 


2 Timothy 3:16-17
16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, 
17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work. 

And here mainly you should remember too:

Ephesians 4:10-16
 11 And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, [the five fold ministry workers]
12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ, 
13 till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ; 
14 that we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting, 
15 but, speaking the truth in love, may grow up in all things into Him who is the head--Christ-- 
16 from whom the whole body, joined and knit together by what every joint supplies, according to the effective working by which every part does its share, causes growth of the body for the edifying of itself in love. 


I refer you to http://forums.delphiforums.com/basicchristian/messages?msg=645.1 to see the duties that David has been assigned to by God.  It is part of the five fold ministy workers job to correct the saints, which is you if you are born again.  Take the time to read this thread and study the scriptures.

And remember, Luke 6:40 A disciple is not above his teacher, but everyone who is perfectly trained will be like his teacher.  David's forum is a teaching and learning experience.  Anyone who is a visitor here is a student unless ordained by God and inaugurated by man.  

Proverbs 12:1
Whoever loves instruction loves knowledge, but he who hates correction is stupid. 

Be thankful that God brought you here to examine the word of God for no one does anything or goes any where that God has not the knowledge of their actions or whereabouts.  If you are following God in all His ways, that is according to the bible and not man's doctrine, you should not have any quarrel with the Word of God and the Doctrine of Jesus Christ.  ~Minister Falcon



 

         

 
  
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  From:  clrose1   7/23/2003 10:32 am  
To:  R/C Floats (RachelsChild)   (72 of 596)  
 
  628.72 in reply to 628.66  
 
Since the LDS church is a Christian church that believes that Jesus Christ is our Lord and Savior. That he died and was resurrected. That he paid the price for all mankind to be saved if mankind will just reach out and accept it... Yes, Joseph Smith agrees with Christianity. True Christianity... 
  
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  From:  clrose1   7/23/2003 10:34 am  
To:  R/C Floats (RachelsChild)   (73 of 596)  
 
  628.73 in reply to 628.66  
 
LDS do teach that the Bible is the Word of God. We also have other scripture which is the word of God. 
  
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  From:  clrose1   7/23/2003 10:35 am  
To:  R/C Floats (RachelsChild)   (74 of 596)  
 
  628.74 in reply to 628.67  
 
I will not get away from a prophet of God upon the earth. The bible tells us that the Lord will do nothing without first revealing his secrets to His servants the prophets. 
I testify to you that the Lord is not doing nothing. He is alive and well, and working through His children here upon the earth.
 
  
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  From:  clrose1   7/23/2003 10:38 am  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (75 of 596)  
 
  628.75 in reply to 628.68  
 
According to Jesus, I am a Son of God, and a joint heir with Christ for all that He has... 
I am not a sad person. Nor am I of Satan. 

It must make you feel good to tell people untruths. I don't know why you have the need to try to show yourself as superior to others. This to me makes you one sad person, and I pray that you will be able to pull yourself out of these depths. For the depths you go to are low and are of Satan. 

I have never claimed to know more than Jesus... Therefore, according to your logic, I must not be evil.
 
  
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  From:  clrose1   7/23/2003 10:40 am  
To:  pbarnes12   (76 of 596)  
 
  628.76 in reply to 628.69  
 
Amen. And, not just because you came to my defense. We should all treat each other with respect and love despite our differences in our lives and our religions. 
  
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  From:  R/C Floats (RachelsChild)   7/23/2003 6:04 pm  
To:  clrose1   (77 of 596)  
 
  628.77 in reply to 628.74  
 
I do not believe that God uses prophets to reveal His "secrets." Everything we need for salvation and righteous living, can and is found in the living word of God, the Bible...period. 

The Lord is perfectly wiling and able to talk to you personally thru His Word, without the aid of man (prophets) or angels. (spirit beings) 

R/C
 
  
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  From:  Certain_Risk   7/24/2003 3:34 pm  
To:  R/C Floats (RachelsChild)   (78 of 596)  
 
  628.78 in reply to 628.77  
 
Apparently, you missed this scripture in the reading of the word. 
Ephesians 4:11-13 
11 And HE HIMSELF GAVE SOME TO BE APOSTLES, SOME PROPHETS, SOME EVANGELISTS, AND SOME PASTORS AND TEACHERS, 
12 FOR THE EQUIPPING OF THE SAINTS FOR THE WORK OF MINISTRY, FOR THE EDIFYING OF THE BODY OF CHRIST, 
13 till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ; 

Unless of course you are not part of the body, do not have a ministry, and have no intention of applying the word to your daily walk. In which case, you are right. CR 

 
  
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  From:  R/C Floats (RachelsChild)   7/24/2003 4:21 pm  
To:  Certain_Risk unread  (79 of 596)  
 
  628.79 in reply to 628.78  
 
No, I certainly have not missed it. 

If you would read the Bible as it is written, you'd see the whole body of Christ participates and is included with the whole.. "Prophets" are only a part of the Body....and certainlt not the head or most important BUT part of the whole. 
Our head shepherd is Jesus Christ. He leads the sheep and reveals His will to his own Sheep....He does not just lead one man into His revealed knowledge BUT all his children. Be very,very wary in following ONE man's ( JS )interpretation of the "voice of God" for you! Come to Jesus on your own, not through the ideas of somebody else. 

" And the sheep hear His voice;and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out." JN.10:3 NKJV 

R/C 





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Edited 7/24/2003 7:24:58 PM ET by R/C Floats (RACHELSCHILD) 
  
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   From:  David (DavidABrown)    7/24/2003 4:50 pm  
To:  R/C Floats (RachelsChild)   (80 of 596)  From:  Minister Falcon (OSMFalcon)     7/24/2003 6:05 pm  
To:  R/C Floats (RachelsChild)   (81 of 596)  
 
  628.81 in reply to 628.79  
 
I think what Certain Risk was saying is that prophets do hear from God and can pass on messages from God to the body.  I don't believe that CR was trying to say that the others who belong to the body of Christ do not matter or are exempt from hearing God.  But the office of the Prophet and the other five fold ministry workers are for the mentoring and maturing the saints. 

In your post you did say that you do not believe that God uses prophets to reveal His "secrets."  I believe as you follow the posts, this is what CR was referring to.  

Indeed God does reveal His secrets to prophets as we find in several scriptures, but it is not limited to prophets alone.

Job 11:6
That He would show you the secrets of wisdom!  For they would double your prudence. Know therefore that God exacts from you less than your iniquity deserves. 

Daniel 2:28-29
28 But there is a God in heaven who reveals secrets, and He has made known to King Nebuchadnezzar what will be in the latter days. Your dream, and the visions of your head upon your bed, were these:
29 As for you, O king, thoughts came to your mind while on your bed, about what would come to pass after this; and He who reveals secrets has made known to you what will be. 


Daniel 2:47
47 The king answered Daniel, and said, "Truly your God is the God of gods, the Lord of kings, and a revealer of secrets, since you could reveal this secret." 

Prophets speak out prophecy as a means to bring the spirit realm into the physical realm.  This is why we must be careful for our words, for life and death is in the tongue. 

God's blessing upon you. 

 

 

         

 
  
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  From:  R/C Floats (RachelsChild)   7/24/2003 6:28 pm  
To:  Minister Falcon (OSMFalcon)    (82 of 596)  
 
  628.82 in reply to 628.81  
 
Hi Minister, 

Yes, I believe God is a revealer of secrets but also believe any saved person can have God's annointing to hear His voice over specific matters. generally though I think it is rare for the lord to give a Word about others...He wants to have a very personal relationship with us, a primary relationship if you will. He is I believe primarily concerned with each individual. It's way too easy for folks to claim prophet statusand then proclaim how God wants some other individual to do such and such etc. 

I believe scripture makes it clear that the offices can be held by all believers, in various times and seasons. 

Hope I've explained it better this second time around. ;0) 

R/C 



 
  
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  From:  R/C Floats (RachelsChild)   7/24/2003 6:33 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (83 of 596)  
 
  628.83 in reply to 628.80  
 
Hi David, 

How I wish all folks could come to know how much God loves them,d how he personally died for them. No works, no gimmics, no mantras required...just the wonderful grace of God alone. 

R/C
 
  
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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    7/24/2003 6:43 pm  
To:  R/C Floats (RachelsChild)   (84 of 596)  
 
  628.84 in reply to 628.83  
 
Exactly!

 

A personal relationship with the Loving Creator God who is Christ Jesus.

 

There are many that do have it. Mister Falcon has it, you have it, I have it, and many of the regular members and visitors to this forum do have a personal relationship with God.

 

It is my biggest prayer right now to God for direction on how to accurately and simply convey the true message of Christ in you the completion and the only hope for our salvation.

 

When you have Jesus you are Complete and lacking in nothing.

 

When we turn our eyes upon Jesus, we are fulfilled!

 

God Bless you,
David



David A. Brown
Basic Christian: Forum
www.BasicChristian.org

 
  
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  From:  Bob (BOBKATZHOST)    7/24/2003 7:16 pm  
To:  R/C Floats (RachelsChild)   (85 of 596)  
 
  628.85 in reply to 628.58  
 
I consider a Christian as one who Follows Jesus Christ. As such the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints qualifies.

As far as I know Joseph Smith was a follower of Jesus Christ. 

I was taught that Christianity falls into three broad categories:

Catholic (RCC, Eastern Orthodox, etc) 
Protestant (Those that are spinoffs from Catholic) 
Restored (LDS, RLDS, etc)
The Bible as originally written by the Prophets is the Revealed Word of God. Unfortunatally I have no assurance that what now exists as the Bible is true to what the Prophets originally wrote.

We have a common ground in Christianity because we are both Followers of Jesus Christ. 

Bob 



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Edited 7/24/2003 10:21:33 PM ET by Bob (BOBKATZHOST) 
  
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  From:  R/C Floats (RachelsChild)   7/24/2003 7:51 pm  
To:  Bob (BOBKATZHOST)    (86 of 596)  
 
  628.86 in reply to 628.85  
 
Hi Bob, 

I'm sorry you have no assurance that the Bible is the living word of God, trustworthy for yesterday, today and tomorrow. That is one of the foundations of the Christian faith believing the Bible is where the buck starts and stops! 

Mohammed (sp?)held a similiar positon to J.Smith. Mohammed believed the practices of the church had become compromised and the holy scripture perverted. He also had a 'revelation' from a angel on how to restore true worship etc. He was supposedly 'restoring' the faith too. 

Traditional Christianity no way resembles the teachings of LDS. Your Jesus is NOT the Jesus found in our only scripture (the Bible). We do not have common ground because we do not follow the same Jesus. 

R/C 






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Edited 7/24/2003 10:53:21 PM ET by R/C Floats (RACHELSCHILD) 
  
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  From:  Bob (BOBKATZHOST)    7/24/2003 8:19 pm  
To:  R/C Floats (RachelsChild)   (87 of 596)  
 
  628.87 in reply to 628.86  
 
The Jesus that the LDS Follow is the Jesus of the Bible. It is not the Jesus of the inturpretations of man.

Joseph Smith had visits from Angels (and others) but received Revelations from God.

Islam does not Follow Jesus although I am told that it does revere Him. As Islam does not follow Jesus I would not consider it Christian. I have been told that Muhammed came to the Jews and wanted them to accept him as a Prophet and follow his lead in following Allah. For some reason the Jews refused. Thus the Jihad against the Jews.

Why do you consider the concept that the Bible is inerrent and complete a foundation of the Christian Faith? There were many years that Christians were forbidden from reading the Bible. Only the Priesthood were allowed to read it. Guttenburg got himself into some trouble with the Jesuits for daring to use a printing press to print the Bible. 

Bob 




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Edited 7/24/2003 11:39:39 PM ET by Bob (BOBKATZHOST) 
  
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  From:  R/C Floats (RachelsChild)   7/25/2003 4:57 am  
To:  Bob (BOBKATZHOST)    (88 of 596)  
 
  628.88 in reply to 628.87  
 
Hi Bob, 

The word of God is complete in the Bible as written. The Church father's settled the issue long ago as to what was scripture and what was not.It is true the RCChurch kept the scriptures from the people but God prevailed and His word did not go out void. 

It would be a cruel act of God to keep His creation ignorant and without hope till J. Smith arrived to set the Church straight. God never would leave His loved ones aimless and empty of His knowledge of salvation for 1800 years! My God is a BIG God and does not need one mortal man (J.S.) to correct His written word. 

The Jesus LDS presents is not the Jesus of the scripture I read. The LDS Jesus is the interpretation of J.Smith via his own writings. (The Pearl, (C'and D's, BOM) Is J.Smith not just a man? How can you trust that God spoke to Him but no one else, such as Mohammed? And if LDS gets corrupted how would you know it?? Who would correct it and how? Would a new revelation come and by whom etc. etc? 

God made His way of salvation simple so that all His creation can find it easily. It is revealed in ONE complete book called the Bible. 

R/C 

 
  
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  From:  Minister Falcon (OSMFalcon)     7/25/2003 10:52 am  
To:  R/C Floats (RachelsChild)   (89 of 596)  
 
  628.89 in reply to 628.82  
 
Hi R/C Floats,

In our church it is not rare to hear the word of the Lord given in corporate prophecy through exhortation or prophecy.  

In 1 Corinthians 12:7-11 we see the manifestation of the gifts of the Spirit in a corporate setting.  Word of wisdom, word of knowledge, faith, gifts of healings, working of miracles, prophecy, discerning spirits, and divers tongues with interpretation as distributed by the Holy Spirit at His will.  It is common place in our church, not rare at all.

I think your concern is genuine as there should be a leader present when these gifts are being used and distributed.  I do not believe that it is wise, nor scriptural to be giving or getting private words without someone there to test and discern the spirit which is giving the words.  This is the area in which people can be duped and fall into the presence of psychic revelation instead of divine revelation.

This however, does not negate the principle fact that God works with us individually as well.  As with all information given to us by people, by prophecy, or by the Spirit of the Lord it should be turned over to God in prayer for a confirmation and perhaps a deeper revelation of its meaning.  

The offices of the five fold ministry are for all of us, but only as dictated by God not by man.  Too many people have put themselves in position before their time, without benefit of the mantle being passed on by another leader.  There is a process of inauguration and ordination that just isn't found only by man's education of the word.  It must be followed as prescribed in the bible.  The line of demarkation has been blurred by man's inherit propensity to change things therefore perverting the process that God had intended.

Remember, many are called but few are chosen.  I know of several people right now that are not qualified for ministry yet they have a following and are inaugurated by man.  They ultimately risk becoming false teachers and false prophets.   We must look to the fruits, that is signs and wonders of the Spirit not the spirit, for Satan also can give signs and wonders.  We can not look at the numbers of followers because the road of perdition and corruption is wide and the path of righteousness is narrow indeed.

Once given to the office of any of the five fold ministers, it is not for a time, nor for a season, it is for eternity.  There is a separate judgment and separate reward found for these people of God.  Those that are not of that office are not equal to those chosen one for the fact of the judgment and reward.  Even though God is no respector of person, we must remember that prophets in God's eyes were honored because they were the spokesperson for God.  He used them for the purpose to teach, train, rebuke, and correct the people of God.  There job is trying and difficult at best.  Yet the rewards are many in the spirit realm.  However, in the natural realm they are not honored as they were tortured, sawn in half, stoned to death, and put to horrible deaths.  God has not changed, He still honors His ministers even though man doesn't recognize their place in the body of Christ.  God's blessings sis 


 

         

 
  
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  From:  clrose1   7/25/2003 4:19 pm  
To:  R/C Floats (RachelsChild)   (90 of 596)  
 
  628.90 in reply to 628.77  
 
It is interesting to me that you can be a believer in the bible and then turn around and say that you don't believe the Lord uses prophets to reveal His secrets. It is right there in Amos 3:7. Go read it. 
The Lord does talk to man as well, but He still uses prophets in our day.
 
  
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  From:  Bob (BOBKATZHOST)    7/25/2003 4:31 pm  
To:  R/C Floats (RachelsChild)   (91 of 596)  
 
  628.91 in reply to 628.88  
 
How do you know that the Word of God is Complete in the Bible as written? Who are these Church Fathers? By what authority did they determine what to include and to exclude? How can you be sure that the Bible was translated correctly. In the KJV there are times when the translators were not sure so they placed other possibilities in the footnotes (see Gen 1:1 for one example). The Bible is obviously missing books that it refers to and even says that not all of Jesus' words and deeds are there. 

Why do you think God is cruel to make mankind wait for Joseph Smith? Using that same logic, you must think God cruel for making mankind wait for 3000 or more years from Adam and Eve until Jesus was born. Why did God wait so long? Why did He not have Jesus born to Eve or maybe Seth's wife (wives?)?

Joseph Smith is juat a man, as is Moses, Abraham, Peter, Paul, (mounds?) and all the other Prophets. Why do you accept that they can write Scripture but Joseph Smith cannot. The Book of Mormon was translated by Joseph Smith, not written by him. The Doctrine and Covenants are Revelations given to the Prophet Joseph and others. The Pearl of Great Price are miscellanous writings by a number of Prophets. 

There is a Prophet on the Earth today whom God Talks to and who guides us jaut as Moses of old did. This is in accordance with what God said He would do. (Amos 3:7).

 

Bob 

 

 
  
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  From:  R/C Floats (RachelsChild)   7/25/2003 4:39 pm  
To:  Bob (BOBKATZHOST)    (92 of 596)  
 
  628.92 in reply to 628.91  
 
Bob, 

God did not leave mankind without His covenant between Adam and Jesus. There was not 3000 years of silence!!! However, according to LDS teachings God did leave mankind to flounder till J. Smith came along. isn't that why LDS baptises for the dead because the "truth' was lost to the common man? 

I will not believe that J. Smith or any other so called prophet can write (translate if you wish )new scripture. That era ended a long time ago.And, I ask you again if the era, dispensation, for ammending/writing scripture has not ended how can you be sure J.Smith's works aren't going to be updated by some newer prophet? How can you defend traditional LDS against "heresey?" 

R/C 




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Edited 7/25/2003 8:43:39 PM ET by R/C Floats (RACHELSCHILD) 
  
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  From:  R/C Floats (RachelsChild)   7/25/2003 4:44 pm  
To:  clrose1   (93 of 596)  
 
  628.93 in reply to 628.90  
 
And what do these prophets say or do that God could not talk to you personally about??? 

BTW it strikes me as ironic that I do believe every word as the written word of God in the Bible but LDS doesn't. I am well aware of what Amos 3:7 says but unlike you I don't just pull verses from the Bible out of context. I believe the whole and read the whole as is. 

R/C 



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Edited 7/25/2003 8:38:39 PM ET by R/C Floats (RACHELSCHILD) 
  
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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    7/25/2003 5:49 pm  
To:  R/C Floats (RachelsChild)   (94 of 596)  
 
  628.94 in reply to 628.93  
 
Hi R/C,

 

Well Done!

 

You have rightly rejected every false approach of the LDS.

 

They do not have a leg to stand on and it is evident in their postings that they are reaching for straws hoping to entangle the gullible.

 

What bothers me is that they are here dishing out their Public Propaganda and then when they get a hold of some poor soul unfortunately they privately really go to work on indoctrinating them.

 

It is best to stay away from the LDS and avoid altogether the many sorrows the following a lie will lead to.

 

God Bless you,
David



David A. Brown
Basic Christian: Forum
www.BasicChristian.org

 
  
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  From:  R/C Floats (RachelsChild)   7/25/2003 6:19 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (95 of 596)  
 
  628.95 in reply to 628.94  
 
Hi David, 

I know what you mean about the unsuspecting searching soul. To be honest, I don't know how to combat heresy except to ask the Lord to protect those truly seeking to find Him. Also, to pray that we who have recieved God's gift of salvation to be faithful in obeying the Word. As my mother often told me when in my youth: "your life is the only Bible some people will ever read." 

As for myself,whenever I go into LDS, New Age etc. websites or read their literature I always pray for the Lord to keep me safe from the subtle tricks of Satan ( doubt, pride, intrigue) and keep me faithful to following and loving the Lord ( and Him only)with all my heart, soul and mind. 

R/C
 
  
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  From:  Bob (BOBKATZHOST)    7/25/2003 6:35 pm  
To:  R/C Floats (RachelsChild)   (96 of 596)  
 
  628.96 in reply to 628.92  
 
We baptise for the Dead not because the Truth was lost but because the Authority to do so was lost. 

How do you know tht the era of writing Scripture is long past? What indication do you have that God changed his ways? 

I have no assurance that a Prophet will not update scripture. I need none. After all, did not the NT update the Old? In the Old we have Eye for an Eye. In the new we have turn the other cheek. In the old we have circumsition is necessary. In the New, we find it is not so necessary. In the old we find that we have to keep Kosher. In the New we find that we no longer have to keep the law of Moses. 

Bob 

  




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Edited 7/25/2003 9:45:52 PM ET by Bob (BOBKATZHOST) 
  
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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    7/26/2003 12:50 pm  
To:  Bob (BOBKATZHOST)    (97 of 596)  
 
  628.97 in reply to 628.96  
 
Bob,

 

The 66 books of the Bible fit together as one complete book with a beginning (Genesis) a middle and complete continuity throughout until the Final Revelation in (Revelation).

 

The books of Mormon (LDS) make no sense, fit in nowhere, and contradict the Bible everywhere.

 

Sadly Only a Fool or a very Proud and Arrogant person would even consider them.

 

Just consider the Mormon practice of baptizing for the Dead. The Bible eludes to a practice that during the early Church it was so risky being a Christian that upon receiving the Baptism it was like signing your own death warrant with the government of Rome. The Mormons in their Pride and Arrogance have presumed that They are a Savior too all of the Past Dead.

 

Mormons are counting God to be the fool, in not having a viable plan throughout the ages but only in 1845 getting one, while Mormons suppose themselves to be wise and beyond being deceived.

 

It is a sad silly spectacle they way you promote yourselves and demote God.

 

David



David A. Brown
Basic Christian: Forum
www.BasicChristian.org

 
  
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  From:  R/C Floats (RachelsChild)   7/26/2003 1:42 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (98 of 596)  
 
  628.98 in reply to 628.97  
 
Hi David, 

Just some verses to affirm God's loyalty/love/presence with His creation. 

Matthew 28:30b NKJV 
"....and, Lo I am with you ALWAYS, even to the end of the age." 

Hebrews 13:5b 
"...I will never leave thee nor forsake thee." 

Philippians 1:6 
" Being confident of this very thing, that HE who begun a good work in you will COMPLETE it untill the day of Christ Jesus." 

Gotta run.... but the idea of God leaving His beloved to flounder really bothered me. We have a FAITHFUL God! Hope others will post verses to show God's greAT faithfulness to His own cratures! 

R/C 
 
  
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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    7/26/2003 2:03 pm  
To:  R/C Floats (RachelsChild)   (99 of 596)  
 
  628.99 in reply to 628.98  
 
Hi R/C

 

How about this one:

 

Jeremiah 33:3 Call unto Me (God), and I will answer thee, and show thee great and mighty things, which thou knowest not.

 

God Bless You,
David



David A. Brown
Basic Christian: Forum
www.BasicChristian.org

 
  
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   From:  Bob (BOBKATZHOST)    7/26/2003 4:48 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (100 of 596)  
 
  628.100 in reply to 628.97  
 
How do you determine that the 66 books of the Bible fit together as one Book? How do you determine the Continuity? Where does (for Example) the book of Job fit in with the rest ofthe Bible? When was Job born under the reign of whom? How does this book fit with the History as portrayed in the Bible? How do you count the consistancy of the Bible when the New Testament contridicts the Old. In the Old Testament All male children are to be circumsised. In the New Testament it is no longer necessary. In the Old Testament (after Moses) we need to keep the Kosher laws. In the New Testament the Law is no longer necessary. These commandments are to be everlasting in the Old Testament but suddenly not so in the New. 

Baptism for the Dead was well enough known in biblical times that Paul could use it in a discussion over Resurrection. There is nothing in the Ordanience that makes us the Saviour of the Dead. 

God has always had a viable plan and it includes the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. The concept of a falling away was wFrom:  R/C Floats (RachelsChild)   7/26/2003 7:29 pm  
To:  Bob (BOBKATZHOST)    (101 of 596)  
 
  628.101 in reply to 628.96  
 
Bob, 

How do you know authority was lost because J. Smith said so?? Okay so I say it hasn't been lost, what is the difference between me having a revelation or J. Smith? How would you know what I say isn;t a new revelation? What is the criteria for an LDS prophet...who determines that? 

The OT completes the NT. They dove tail very nicely. Try reading the entire Bible from Genesis to Revelation without the LDS commentary....it might just speak to you differently if you would put the LDS bias aside and read the Word of God as is. 

R/C
 
  
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  From:  boodada   7/26/2003 7:57 pm  
To:  Bob (BOBKATZHOST)    (102 of 596)  
 
  628.102 in reply to 628.100  
 
Hi Bob! 
You said: 
Baptism for the Dead was well enough known in biblical times that Paul could use it in a discussion over Resurrection. 

Boodada says: 
Paul also used pagan poetry on Mars Hill in a discussion about God. Does that mean he agreed with its contents? 

Further, it is obvious from the text the church of Corinth was not 
practicing baptism of the dead 

You said: 
There is nothing in the Ordanience that makes us the Saviour of the Dead. 

Boodada says: 
That's what your doing, Bob -- presuming you know better than God 
and have to baptize dead people to make sure they got the gospel 

Don't you trust God to be just and merciful? 

You said: 
God has always had a viable plan and it includes the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. The concept of a falling away was well known and mentioned in Biblical Scripture. 

Boodada says: 
Falling away is inevitable 
Total apostasy is not 

P.S. Hebrews 9:27 says it is appointed for man to die once and then 
the judgment 

Let God do that judgment, Bob
 
  
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  From:  Bob (BOBKATZHOST)    7/26/2003 8:05 pm  
To:  R/C Floats (RachelsChild)   (103 of 596)  
 
  628.103 in reply to 628.101  
 
History says the Authority was lost. The authors of the Bible fortold this event. Take a look at 1 Tim 4:1-2,  Isa 60;2, Matt 24:4-12, Matt 21:41-46, 2 Thess 2:1-11. There are many others.

I believe The Authority was lost when the Apostles were killed off faster than they could ordain other Apostles.

You do have the right to revelation concerning yourself. The Prophet receives revelation concerning all mankind. 

I know that Joseph Smith is a True Prophet of God because I have asked God and received an answer that he is. A Prophet of God is called of God. 

I have read the entire Bible (including Lev) without looking up LDS Commentary. Everything I have read just verifies what I have learned of God and His Church, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. The Church uses the KJV of the Bible. The text is unchanged by the Church.

Bob 

 

 
  
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  From:  Bob (BOBKATZHOST)    7/26/2003 8:11 pm  
To:  boodada   (104 of 596)  
 
  628.104 in reply to 628.102  
 
Yes I trust God to be Just and merciful. That is why He gave us the ability to do the necessary ordaniences for those who have passed on before us.

Jesus said that everyone must be baptised. How are those who never had the chance to learn of Jesus or be baptised obtain this necessary ordanience?

God in His wisdom and Judgement has provided a mechnism for all those who have never had the chance to perform these ordaniences for themselves.

Bob 

 

 
  
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  From:  boodada   7/26/2003 8:44 pm  
To:  Bob (BOBKATZHOST)    (105 of 596)  
 
  628.105 in reply to 628.104  
 
You said: 
Yes I trust God to be Just and merciful. That is why He gave us the ability to do the necessary ordaniences for those who have passed on before us. 
Boodada says: 
Contradiction. If God is just and merciful, He will take care of the dead. 

Jesus said the dead should bury the dead 

Maybe you should examine that further 

You said: 
Jesus said that everyone must be baptised. 

Boodada says: 
Was the thief on the cross baptized, Bob? 

You said: 
How are those who never had the chance to learn of Jesus or be baptised obtain this necessary ordanience? 

Boodada says: 
Baptism in water or by proxy doesn't save ANYONE 

Baptismal regeneration is FALSE 

You said: 
God in His wisdom and Judgement has provided a mechnism for all those who have never had the chance to perform these ordaniences for themselves. 

Boodada says: 
Read Romans 1 -- no one is without excuse
 
  
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  From:  Bob (BOBKATZHOST)    7/26/2003 9:05 pm  
To:  boodada   (106 of 596)  
 
  628.106 in reply to 628.105  
 
God has taken care of the dead by providing us a method of doing the necessary ordaniences for them. 

I don't know if the Thief on the Cross was baptised or not. Scripture does not say. It realy does not matter. Jesus told him that he would be in Paradise, not Heaven. I believe they are two separate and discinct places. 

Jesus Saves not Baptism. However, Baptism is necessary. All must be Baptised.

I have read Romans 1 and do not see that which you think I should see. I do not understand how someone can choose God with no knowledge of Him especially when the political powers that be purposely withhold that information. 

Bob 

 

 
  
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  From:  boodada   7/26/2003 10:52 pm  
To:  Bob (BOBKATZHOST)    (107 of 596)  
 
  628.107 in reply to 628.106  
 
You said: 
God has taken care of the dead by providing us a method of doing the necessary ordaniences for them. 
Boodada says: 
Why can't God just speak to the dead Himself? 

You _DO_ realize that in the bible communicating with the dead 
is forbidden, right? 

You said: 
I don't know if the Thief on the Cross was baptised or not. Scripture does not say. 

Boodada says: 
Bob, be serious. The thief hung on the cross and then had his legs broken shortly after Jesus died. You think they let him down for a baptism and then nailed him back up there? 

You said: 
It realy does not matter. Jesus told him that he would be in Paradise, not Heaven. I believe they are two separate and discinct places. 

Boodada says: 
I see. So is the thief still there? 

You said: 
Jesus Saves not Baptism. However, Baptism is necessary. All must be Baptised. 

Boodada says: 
Baptism is necessary because it is necessary to obey Christ, but not 
to be saved. 

It is grace through faith that saves (Eph 2:8-9) 

So why have baptism for the dead when you just admitted baptism doesn't save? 

 
  
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  From:  boodada   7/26/2003 10:54 pm  
To:  boodada unread  (108 of 596)  
 
  628.108 in reply to 628.107  
 
The Doctrine and Covenants teaches that the Book of Mormon contains: "...the fullness of the gospel of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles and to the Jews also," (Section 20:9). 
Further, the D&C teaches that "...this most glorious of all subjects belonging to the everlasting gospel [is] namely the baptism for the dead," (Section 128:17). 

So the Book of Mormon contains the fullness of the gospel of Jesus Christ, and the D&C refers to baptism as "glorious" and belonging to the "everlasting gospel." 

Where are the references to baptism for the dead in a book that is 
supposed to contain the fullness of the gospel? 

Further, in Alma 34:34,35, the Book of Mormon teaches that: "Ye cannot say, when ye are brought to that awful crisis [death], that I will repent, that I will return to my God. Nay, ye cannot say this; for that same spirit which doth possess your bodies at the time that ye go out of this life, that same spirit will have power to possess your body in that eternal world. For behold, if ye have procrastinated the day of your repentance even until death, behold, ye have become subjected to the spirit of the devil, and he doth seal you his; therefore, the Spirit of the Lord hath withdrawn from you, and the devil hath all power over you; and this is the final state of the wicked" 

So why baptize for the dead when the Alma passage negates it? 

How is this reconciled, that the Book of Mormon contains no baptism for the dead and even offers no hope to the "final state of the wicked"? 

 
  
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  From:  R/C Floats (RachelsChild)   7/27/2003 3:58 am  
To:  Bob (BOBKATZHOST)    (109 of 596)  
 
  628.109 in reply to 628.103  
 
Bob: 

Actually, you should take a good look at what 1 Timothy 4 expresses. To me it very well describes the LDS Church. 

Again, what is the LDS criteria for being a prophet? Surely many men have claimed to have a revelation for mankind. Mohammed did, Jim Jones did etc. How does LDS discern between the false and true? 

What difference does it matter if the Church uses KJV..."unchanged text'" if the LDS doesn't believe it is the true, uncurrupted Word of God anyway? 

Where does it say in KJV that the apostles were killed off faster then they could ordain? that is not found in the Bible and if you have read it from cover to cover, you know that. 

Lets not use the Bible as a defense for one issue but not another. Where in the Bible does it say the Apostles died out before their work was finished? 

R/C 

 
  
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  From:  R/C Floats (RachelsChild)   7/27/2003 5:29 am  
To:  boodada   (110 of 596)  
 
  628.110 in reply to 628.105  
 
Hi Boodada, 

Excellent imput from the word of God, enjoyed reading those verses! Also, you have keen insight as to the falseness of LDS teachings. 

R/C
 
  
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  From:  Bob (BOBKATZHOST)    7/27/2003 7:30 am  
To:  boodada   (111 of 596)  
 
  628.111 in reply to 628.107  
 
I am sure God can and Does speak to the Dead Himself. However He has appointed us to perform the necessary ordaniences on this Earth for them. We do not communicate with the Dead. we stand in proxy for them. 

I am very serious. I do not know if the Thief was Baptised eariler in his life but John or one of the Apostles. The Thief could well still be in Paradise. 

Jesus told us to be baptised. Whether it saves or not, if Jesus says so then it is necessary. Since God is not a respector of persons All must be baptised. In hHis Wisdom He has provided a way for those who have no opportunity to do this for themselves to have it done for them. This is Baptism for the Dead.

Bob 

  




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Edited 7/27/2003 10:40:53 AM ET by Bob (BOBKATZHOST) 
  
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  From:  Bob (BOBKATZHOST)    7/27/2003 7:40 am  
To:  R/C Floats (RachelsChild)   (112 of 596)  
 
  628.112 in reply to 628.109  
 
Do you really believe that the Bible contains everything of God? It says it doesn't.

We use the Bible because there is a lot of good stuff in it. 

The Prophets are Called of God. If we have a question whether that is so or not we can (and do) go to our Heavenly Father in sincere prayer to receive confirmation. 

I did not say that the Apostles were killed before their work was finished. I said that they were killed faster then they could ordain new Apostles. 

To me 1 Tim 4 describes Traditional Christianity especially the RCC with "forbidding to marry and abstain from meat." in v3. If you look at LDS history you will note that we go in exactly the opposite direction with "Forbidding to marry"

Bob 
 
  
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  From:  R/C Floats (RachelsChild)   7/27/2003 9:24 am  
To:  Bob (BOBKATZHOST)    (113 of 596)  
 
  628.113 in reply to 628.112  
 
Bob, 

Yes, I do believe the Bible contains all of God's word? Do I believe God reveals Himself in other ways (creation,prayer as examples YES. But both are affirmed in the word of God. 

Going to God for confirmation of a prophet is not enough. The Bible says ANY and ALL predictions by a prophet must be absolutely come to pass, be 100% accurate , true ot they are false prophets.We are to test the spirits. 

Where does it say in the Bible that the apostles couldn't ordain fast enough before they died? the Apostle John lived to be a very old man. 

I use the Bible because that is how God speaks to His disciples, followers etc....it is His revealed Word, not just "good stuff." 

I Timothy 4 describes: "in the LATTER days some will depart from the faith giving heed to seducing spirits and doctrines of Demons..." and as for the obstaining of certain foods_(how about caffeine?) and forbidding to marry?...how about forbidding to marry just one wife? (as God created Eve for Adam) 

R/C 
 
  
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  From:  Bob (BOBKATZHOST)    7/27/2003 2:16 pm  
To:  R/C Floats (RachelsChild)   (114 of 596)  
 
  628.114 in reply to 628.113  
 
Why do you feel that the Bible contains ALL of God's Word? Does the Bible make that claim?

I am aware about the 100% accuracy test. I am also aware that there are Biblical Prophets that could not pass that test. 

I agree that John lived to be very old. There are some who say he is still alive. How many Apostles does it take to ordain a new Apostle? How many were there when Matthisis was ordained?

Where in the Bible do you find God using the Bible to speak to His disciples, followers, etc? Did Jesus give them a book to read or did He talk to them?

And In the Latter days some have departed from the faith. I believe that the creation of the RCC is such a departure. The Protestant Reformation is another such. The Splinters from that are yet another. 

Caffine is not a food and we are not forbidden from partaking of it. I know of no one in the Church who was forbidden to marry just one wife. You may forget that in order to marry a second wife you first must marry a first wife. You don't marry wives en masse.

Bob 

 

 
  
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  From:  R/C Floats (RachelsChild)   7/27/2003 4:09 pm  
To:  Bob (BOBKATZHOST)    (115 of 596)  
 
  628.115 in reply to 628.114  
 
The Apostle Paul was not ordained by the other 12. Ananias who was directed by God, to place his hands upon Saul/Paul was described as a "disciple". (Acts 9: 10-19) 

Jesus spoke to the people in parables and often included OT texts into His discussions. He gave validity to many of the OT Books, known in that day as "the Sriptures" or as Jesus Himself called them, "The Word of God". Jesus often read from the Scriptures while He was teaching in the Synagog. He spoke of Noah and the flood, Jonah and the large fish etc. and quoted from Isaiah and the Psalms. Question for you. When Jesus was tempted of Satan what did Jesus quote to Satan to defend Himself against Satan's temptations? 

The flavor of 1 Timothy 4 paints a picture of a system of error that involves apostacy, a falling away from the truth, in the latter days...it especially emphasizes those who depart from the faith by giving heed to deceiving spirits. 


Eusebius, bishop of Caesarea AD mid 200's prepared Bibles for Constantine. They were made up of the 27 books of the NT we have today. The Church "fathers'decided by the input of the Holy Spirt 
that the Canon consist of those 27 books. 

What Biblical prophets couldn't pass the accountability test? 

R/C 


 
  
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  From:  Bob (BOBKATZHOST)    7/27/2003 4:46 pm  
To:  R/C Floats (RachelsChild)   (116 of 596)  
 
  628.116 in reply to 628.115  
 
I do not see how you get that Paul was ordained an Apostle in Acts 9:10-19. Ananias gave a blessing to restore his sight. Frankly, Paul confuses me. There were the twelve with Matththis replacing Judas. Then there is Paul who somehow became an apostle. Who did he replace? If nobody then there were 13 Apostles and I have had those would tell me that there can be no more apostles beyond the original 12. 

4 But he answered and said, It is written, aMan shall not blive by cbread alone, but by every dword that proceedeth out of the emouth of God.

(New Testament | Matthew 4:4)

Jesus said every word not just what little we now have that is contained in the Bible.

Considering that the Apostles were killed off by about 100 CE, Eusebius and Constintine did what they did with the authority from God to do so. The Church "Fathers" did not have the right to pick and choose which books to consider scripture and which one to discard.

Jonah and Jeremiah come immediately to mind when we talk about the accountability test. 

Bob 

  




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Edited 7/27/2003 7:48:22 PM ET by Bob (BOBKATZHOST) 
  
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  From:  R/C Floats (RachelsChild)   7/27/2003 5:27 pm  
To:  Bob (BOBKATZHOST)    (117 of 596)  
 
  628.117 in reply to 628.116  
 
BoB, 

Acts 9:15 the Lord says, (to Ananias), " go for he ( Saul)is a chosen vessel of Mine...and in verse 17b Ananias further states to Paul "and be filled with the Holy Spirt." There is no doubt Paul was an apostle as Peter most definitely acknowledges this. Whether Matthias was correctly chosen to replace Judas is a fair question. 

You have not proved to me that the Bible is not the complete and finished work of God.I am well aware of other writings (but not in the canon of Scripture)of the Sub Apastolic Fathers such as, Polycarp, Ignatius etc. These men had direct contact with the original apostles, either as companions or as students. Their testimoy to the writings and works of the apostles is most valid. 

If the church fathers did not have the right to pick and choose (eyewitnesses to the apostles no less) you want me to believe 1830 years later J. Smith has the right to pick and choose scripture????? 

How did Jonah or Jeremiah not speak the truth ? (scripture please) 

R/C
 
  
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  From:  Bob (BOBKATZHOST)    7/27/2003 6:26 pm  
To:  R/C Floats (RachelsChild)   (118 of 596)  
 
  628.118 in reply to 628.117  
 
As I said I am confued with Paul being an Apostle. There seems to be no record of the ordaination. It is just one of those things that is not recorded in Scripture. 

The Bible says that it is not complete. It refers one to other books (like Jasher) that are not included. Some of the people who made the decision as to what to include and what to exclude may have had contact with the Apostles but they did not have the Authority from God to do what they did. 

The Prophet Joseph Smith did not pick and choose scripture. He acted with the Authority and Blessing of God. He had the Authority given him by Peter, James and John. 

I did not say that Jonah and Jeremiah did not tell the truth (if what they wrote was translated correctly). I said that their prophesies did not come to pass. Jonah prophesied that the City of Ninevah would be destroyed. No ifs ands or buts. God Repented and did not do so. 

Jeremiah prophesied that the King (Zachariah?) would die in peace. In fact he died in prison after watching his family killed and his eyes put out. Some Peace. 

Sorry I am going off the top of my head (not much left there anymore) and do not have the verses memorized.

Bob 

 

 
  
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  From:  R/C Floats (RachelsChild)   7/27/2003 6:54 pm  
To:  Bob (BOBKATZHOST)    (119 of 596)  
 
  628.119 in reply to 628.118  
 
Bob, 

It is recorded in the Bible that Paul was an apostle....it is not silent. Wouldn't it be more accurate to say that LDS beleifs on ordination do not line up with Scripture? 

The Bible does contain references to a few other writings...book of Enoch in Jude. Paul also quotes a Greek saying but that does not mean those books/saying were the word of God. I may quote a writing from a Christian author who sheds light on the Word but in no way does that make the author's words inspired! 

Prove to me how J. Smith acted with the authority of God? Prove to me how the Sub Apolstolic Fathers did not have God's authority? What authority of the 3 Apostles are you referring too. ( Bible reference please) 

Niniveh certainly was destroyed in the early part of BC 600's....no if ands or buts. God chose to defer the punishment to about 100 years later and Jonah's prophecy then became fact. 

I'll have to look up the King Zechariah later. 

R/C
 
  
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   From:  Bob (BOBKATZHOST)    7/27/2003 8:04 pm  
To:  R/C Floats (RachelsChild)   (120 of 596)  
 
  628.120 in reply to 628.119  
 
Who ordained Paul to the Apostleship. Who did he replace? When did this happen?

Who determines what writings are inspired and what are not? In the case of the bible, Man made this determination without the authority of God. God had no say in it. 

You are questioning the Authority of Peter, James and John?

Ninevah may have been destroyed in 600 BCE but if you check out Jonah you will discover that the prophesy said that Ninevah would be destroyed in 70 days. It wasn't. It was a failed prophesy.

Bob 

  




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Edited 7/28/2003 12:09:13 AM ET by Bob (BOBKATZHOST) 
  
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From:  boodada   7/27/2003 9:19 pm  
To:  R/C Floats (RachelsChild)   (121 of 596)  
 
  628.121 in reply to 628.110  
 
Hi Boodada, 
Excellent imput from the word of God, enjoyed reading those verses! Also, you have keen insight as to the falseness of LDS teachings. 

Boodada says: 
Thanks 

It surprises me how much the LDS religion is based on the supposed 
apostasy that originates in Catholicism, but when you examine Mormonism, it is no different 

A false priesthood 
High holy days 
Extra-biblical laws 
Communicating with the dead 

and so on... 

 
  
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  From:  boodada   7/27/2003 9:23 pm  
To:  Bob (BOBKATZHOST)    (122 of 596)  
 
  628.122 in reply to 628.111  
 
You said: 
I am sure God can and Does speak to the Dead Himself. However He has appointed us to perform the necessary ordaniences on this Earth for them. 
Boodada says: 
No, He has not 

That is why Hebrews 9:27 says it is appointed once for man to die 
and then comes the judgment 

There is not a SINGLE reference in scripture about ANYONE being 
offered a second chance once they have gone to judgment 

If you can find one, let me know 

You said: 
We do not communicate with the Dead. we stand in proxy for them. 

Boodada says: 
What is the difference? 

You said: 
I am very serious. I do not know if the Thief was Baptised eariler in his life but John or one of the Apostles. 

Boodada says: 
Well, he would not have been baptized by the Holy Spirit, because 
that did not occur until Pentecost 

Now, if he was a believer, what is he doing mocking Jesus 
the first three hours on the cross? 

You said: 
The Thief could well still be in Paradise. 

Boodada says: 
Which is _where_ according to you? 

You said: 
Jesus told us to be baptised. Whether it saves or not, if Jesus says so then it is necessary. Since God is not a respector of persons All must be baptised. In hHis Wisdom He has provided a way for those who have no opportunity to do this for themselves to have it done for them. This is Baptism for the Dead. 

Boodada says: 
What about Jesus' parable of the rich man and Lazarus? 

Did the rich man get an offer to be baptized though he was dead? 

What did Jesus say about this man's chances at repentance after 
he was suffering in hell? 

 
  
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  From:  boodada   7/27/2003 9:29 pm  
To:  Bob (BOBKATZHOST)    (123 of 596)  
 
  628.123 in reply to 628.112  
 
You said: 
I did not say that the Apostles were killed before their work was finished. I said that they were killed faster then they could ordain new Apostles. 
Boodada says: 
Bob, the office of apostle was meant to expire with the 12. That is 
why you never see any additions. 

Judas' office was replaced because of the manner in which he vacated it. 

Why would Jesus promise to be with us always and then build His church in such a manner that within a century or two it is gone from the face of the earth? 

Do you see the inherit blasphemy in your argument? 

Now, look what happens in Titus 1:5: 

"The reason I left you in Crete was that you might straighten out what was left unfinished and appoint elders in every town, as I directed you." 

And that's what the church did -- appointed elders in every town 
to proliferate the church of Christ 

 
  
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  From:  boodada   7/27/2003 9:33 pm  
To:  Bob (BOBKATZHOST)    (124 of 596)  
 
  628.124 in reply to 628.120  
 
Jonah did not utter a failed prophecy 
John 3:4-5 

On the first day, Jonah started into the city. He proclaimed: "Forty more days and Nineveh will be overturned." The Ninevites believed God. They declared a fast, and all of them, from the greatest to the least, put on sackcloth. 

Now if the prophecy was that they would be destroyed, why did they 
fast and put on sackcloth? 

 
  
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  From:  Bob (BOBKATZHOST)    7/27/2003 9:46 pm  
To:  boodada   (125 of 596)  
 
  628.125 in reply to 628.121  
 
The Priesthood is True

What High Holy Days?

Where is it recorded that all Scripture is contained only within the Bible? Where is it recorded that there can be no more Scripture than what man has decided to put into the Bible?

As I have told you previously we do not Communicate with the Dead.

Bob 

  




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Edited 7/28/2003 12:51:53 AM ET by Bob (BOBKATZHOST) 
  
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  From:  Bob (BOBKATZHOST)    7/27/2003 9:51 pm  
To:  boodada   (126 of 596)  
 
  628.126 in reply to 628.122  
 
<<There is not a SINGLE reference in scripture about ANYONE being 
offered a second chance once they have gone to judgment >>

What about before they go to Judgement?

The difference is that we do not communicate with the dead.

The Thief could well have been Baptised with Water as Jesus was Baptised.

Paradise. A Persian word meaning a garden. It is not found in the O.T. In the N.T. it occurs in Luke 23:43, 2 Cor. 12:4, and Rev. 2:7. See also 2 Ne. 9:13; Alma 40:12, 14; 4 Ne. 1:14; Moro. 10:34; D&C 77:2, 5; cf. A of F 10. Paradise is that part of the spirit world in which the righteous spirits who have departed from this life await the resurrection of the body. It is a condition of happiness and peace. However, the scriptures are not always consistent in the use of the word, especially in the Bible. For example, when Jesus purportedly said to the thief on the cross, "To day shalt thou be with me in paradise" (Luke 23:43), the Bible rendering is incorrect. The statement would more accurately read, "Today shalt thou be with me in the world of spirits" since the thief was not ready for paradise (see HC 5:42425). Possibly 2 Cor. 12:4 should also not use paradise in the sense of meaning the spirit world, as much as meaning the celestial kingdom. The "paradisiacal glory" of A of F 10 refers to the glorified millennial state of the earth rather than the spirit world.

(Bible Dictionary | P Paradise:Entry)

Bob 

 

 
  
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  From:  Bob (BOBKATZHOST)    7/27/2003 9:54 pm  
To:  boodada   (127 of 596)  
 
  628.127 in reply to 628.123  
 
If the office of Apostle was meant to expire with the 12 (and that is documented where?) then how do you explain Matthedius and Paul?

Jesus knew there would be a falling away and it is so indicated in Scripture. He provided a way to Restore His Church. This happened in 1830.

Bob 

 

 
  
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  From:  boodada   7/27/2003 9:56 pm  
To:  Bob (BOBKATZHOST)    (128 of 596)  
 
  628.128 in reply to 628.125  
 
You said: 
The Priesthood is True 
Boodada says: 
No, Bob, there is no more human priesthood. 

It was abolished and Christ is the only priest of this new covenant 

Hebrews 7:22-28 
"By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament." 

-the levitical priesthood is no more, which is something Joseph 
Smith did not understand, or else he wouldn't have claimed any 
kind of restoration or reinstitution of the Aaronic priesthood 

"And they truly were many priests, because they were not suffered to continue by reason of death: But this man, because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood." 

-Aaronic priests were appointed for life, and when the high priest died, another took his place 

Jesus lives forever, no He does not need any other priests! 

"Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them. For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens; Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once, when he offered up himself." 

So since Jesus made one perfect offering, there is no need for other priests. 

Bob, what do Mormon priests do, anyway? 

You said: 
As I have told you previously we do not Communicate with the Dead. 

Boodada says: 
Oh? How do the dead find out someone baptized for them?
 
  
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  From:  Bob (BOBKATZHOST)    7/27/2003 9:57 pm  
To:  boodada   (129 of 596)  
 
  628.129 in reply to 628.124  
 
The prophesy was that Ninevah would be overturned. It was not. The Prophesy failed.

 

Bob 

 

 
  
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  From:  boodada   7/27/2003 9:57 pm  
To:  Bob (BOBKATZHOST)    (130 of 596)  
 
  628.130 in reply to 628.126  
 
Where is your scripture for second chances in the afterlife? 
  
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  From:  boodada   7/27/2003 10:01 pm  
To:  Bob (BOBKATZHOST)    (131 of 596)  
 
  628.131 in reply to 628.127  
 
You said: 
If the office of Apostle was meant to expire with the 12 (and that is documented where?) then how do you explain Matthedius and Paul? 
Boodada says: 
Matthedius? Who? 

Do you perhaps mean Matthias? I already told you -- Judas' office 
was vacated unnaturally, and scripture prophesized that another would take his place 

Paul is a special case, and was not an addition to the 12. He even says so -- he contrasts himself with what he calls "superapostles" 

Further, Paul was chosen by Christ Himself 

Man cannot ordain apostles 

You said: 
Jesus knew there would be a falling away and it is so indicated in Scripture. He provided a way to Restore His Church. This happened in 1830. 

Boodada says: 
Crap, pure and simple 

"lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world" 
[Matthew 28:20] 

Are you calling Jesus a liar? 

Perhaps Jesus really meant "Lo I am with you until 100AD and then 
back again 1700 years later"???
 
  
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  From:  boodada   7/27/2003 10:03 pm  
To:  Bob (BOBKATZHOST)    (132 of 596)  
 
  628.132 in reply to 628.129  
 
You said: 
The prophesy was that Ninevah would be overturned. It was not. The Prophesy failed. 
Boodada says: 
Funny how you're the one who says not everything is in scripture. How do you know that wasn't part of Jonah's message? 

Further, you're expecting us to believe that God wanted Jonah to 
deliver a message knowing the Ninevites _would_ repent and God's 
messenger would look like a liar. 

Is that right? 

Further, remember the sentence for a prophet who made a failed 
prophesy? 

So your understanding leads us to conclude that God set Jonah up 
to look like a fool, and when Jonah became a fool, God killed Him. 

 
  
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  From:  R/C Floats (RachelsChild)   7/28/2003 3:27 am  
To:  Bob (BOBKATZHOST)    (133 of 596)  
 
  628.133 in reply to 628.120  
 
God ordained Paul as an Apostle. Where does scriptue say Paul was to replace anyone? Paul repeatedly refers to himself as an apostle called of God. Romans 1:1, 1 Cor.1:1,Eph.1:1 and so on. 

LDS teachings are from a man...God had no say in it. 

What authority of Peter,James and John am I questioning? The Bereans were cited as noble for examining the scriptures daily to see if what Paul and Silas were saying was true. ( Acts 17: 10-12) 

R/C 
 
  
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 From:  Minister Falcon (OSMFalcon)     7/28/2003 4:24 am  
To:  Bob (BOBKATZHOST)     
 
    
 
Bob: History says the Authority was lost. The authors of the Bible fortold this event. Take a look at 1 Tim 4:1-2,  Isa 60;2, Matt 24:4-12, Matt 21:41-46, 2 Thess 2:1-11. There are many others.

1 Timothy 4
4:1 Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, 
2 speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron, 
3 forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from foods which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth. 

Isaiah 60:2
[For behold] Lo, darkness covers the earth. This is designed to turn the attention to the fact that all the rest of the world would be enveloped in deep spiritual night.
[Shall cover the earth] Shall envelope the whole world except where it is illuminated by the gospel. It is needless to say that this was the fact when the Messiah came, and that it is still extensively true also.
[And gross darkness] Lowth renders this, 'A thick vapor.' Herder. 'Deep obscurity.' Septuagint, gnofos (NT:1105) - Cloud, shade, tempest. The Hebrew word `raapel (OT:6205) usually denotes thick cloud, cloudy darkness, gloom; and is often applied to the thick clouds of a tempest (Exodus 20:18; Deuteronomy 4:11; Psalms 18:10). It is a word of intenser meaning than that which is rendered 'darkness' choshek (OT:2822) and the idea here is, that the nations would be enveloped in a cloud of ignorance and sin so dense and obscure that no light could penetrate it-a description strikingly applicable to the whole pagan world.
[But the LORD shall arise upon thee] Like the sun. That is, Yahweh would manifest his perfections to them in a glorious manner.
[Shall be seen upon thee] There is more emphatic meaning in the original here than is conveyed in our translation. The Hebrew word yeeraa'eh (OT:7200) does not mean merely that that glory would be visible, but that it would be conspicuous. It would be so bright and luminous that it would be seen afar-like a cloud or column of glory standing over Jerusalem that would be conspicuous to far distant people
(from Barnes' Notes)

Matthew 24:4-14
4 And Jesus answered and said to them: "Take heed that no one deceives you. 
5 For many will come in My name, saying, 'I am the Christ,' and will deceive many. 
6 And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not troubled; for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. 
7 For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences, and earthquakes in various places. 
8 All these are the beginning of sorrows. 
9 Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name's sake. 
10 And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another. 
11 Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many. 
12 And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold. 
13 But he who endures to the end shall be saved. 
14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come. 


Response:  Matthew 5:10-12
10 Blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness' sake, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. 
11 "Blessed are you when they revile and persecute you, and say all kinds of evil against you falsely for My sake. 
12 Rejoice and be exceedingly glad, for great is your reward in heaven, for so they persecuted the prophets who were before you. 


Jesus speaking to the chief priests and Pharisees NOT BELIEVERS [verse 13]

Matthew 21:41-45
42 Jesus said to them, "Have you never read in the Scriptures: 'The stone which the builders rejected has become the chief cornerstone. This was the LORD's doing, and it is marvelous in our eyes'?  
43 "Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken from you [the chief priests and Pharisees] and given to a nation bearing the fruits of it [THE BELIEVERS]. 
44 And whoever falls on this stone will be broken; but on whomever it falls, it will grind him to powder."  


2 Thessalonians 2:1-12
2:1 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 
2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 
3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day [see below for the meaning] will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 
4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God. 
5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? 
6 And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. 
7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. 
8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 
9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, 
10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 
11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 
12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness. 


NT:2250 day =heemera, heemeras, hee

1. used of the natural day, or the interval between sunrise and sunset, as distinguished from and contrasted with night 
a. properly, by day, in the daytime Revelation 21:25 
b. metaphorically, the "day" is regarded as the time for abstaining from indulgence, vice, crime 1 Thessalonians 5:5,8 
2. used of the civil day, or the space of twenty-four hours Matthew 6:34 
3. used of the last day of the present age
(from Thayer's Greek Lexicon)

Bob: I believe The Authority was lost when the Apostles were killed off faster than they could ordain other Apostles.

Matthew 28:18-20
18 And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. 
19 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 
20 teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age." Amen.


I don't see the loss of any of Christ's authority, if anything I see the increase in the believers.  Authority did not end with the apostles, it was a command by Jesus to make disciples of all nations, teaching them to observe all things that He commanded the apostles to do and observe.  It is called the Great Commission by most Christians.  

Joe Smith might have been a prophet, I don't know.  However, I can tell you this, if you believe that these scriptures are telling you that all of Christ's authority and the power and authority that was given to us by Christ is no longer applicable or enforced, then you are hearing from a spirit of error.  For it is written that these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues;  they will take up serpents; and if they drink anything deadly, it will by no means hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover."  Believers still exist so therefore the power of Jesus Christ still exist in the believer. 




I am not sure where you are getting 1845 from, Perhaps you are referrng to the fact that on September 23, 1845 the first US Baseball club, the New York Knickerbocker Club, was organized.

It is sad that you seem to think that we in any way promte ourselves and demote God. It simply is not so.

Bob 
 
  
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 From:  Bob (BOBKATZHOST)    7/28/2003 7:37 am  
To:  Minister Falcon (OSMFalcon)    (135 of 596)  
 
  628.135 in reply to 628.134  
 
I said nothing about Christs authority being diminished. However the Authority That He gave the Apostles was lost from the Earth with their deaths. It was restored in the 1830's to the Prophet Joseph Smith.
Bob 

 

 
  
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  From:  Bob (BOBKATZHOST)    7/28/2003 7:41 am  
To:  R/C Floats (RachelsChild)   (136 of 596)  
 
  628.136 in reply to 628.133  
 
I have been told repeatedly on boards like this that there were only to be the original 12 apostles. I have seen no scriptural backing for this. Problem is Mattethias (sp?) and Paul. They seem to break the rules.

LDS Teachings are from God. God Revealed (reveals) His will to His Prophet just as the Bible says he will.

And just like the Bereans we study the Scriptures. All of the revealed Scriptures, not just those found in the Bible.

Bob 

 

 
  
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  From:  clrose1   7/28/2003 11:05 am  
To:  R/C Floats (RachelsChild)   (137 of 596)  
 
  628.137 in reply to 628.92  
 
So God is not the same yesterday, today, and forever. He got rid of prophets completely. He doesn't work in the same way? 
  
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  From:  clrose1   7/28/2003 11:06 am  
To:  R/C Floats (RachelsChild)   (138 of 596)  
 
  628.138 in reply to 628.93  
 
The prophets are given things that are for all the people of the earth. I am given things that belong to me and to those places that I have authority over. 
So tell me what Amos 3:7 means then... YOu tell me I pull it out of context with absolutely no proof.
 
  
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  From:  clrose1   7/28/2003 11:07 am  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (139 of 596)  
 
  628.139 in reply to 628.94  
 
I have gotten with nobody to let RC know that he is wrong. 
  
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   From:  clrose1   7/28/2003 11:09 am  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (140 of 596)  
 
  628.140 in reply to 628.97  
 
No demotion of God in the LDS church. Whenever I read the book of mormon and compare it with the bible, I find that they go together well. 
  
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From:  clrose1   7/28/2003 11:10 am  
To:  R/C Floats (RachelsChild)   (141 of 596)  
 
  628.141 in reply to 628.101  
 
All things of truth can be verified through the Holy Spirit. 
  
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  From:  clrose1   7/28/2003 11:19 am  
To:  R/C Floats (RachelsChild)   (142 of 596)  
 
  628.142 in reply to 628.119  
 
The LDS are not out to prove that Joseph Smith was a prophet. We only teach people, and leave it up to them to find the proof for themselves. Through study and prayer to God. 
  
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  From:  clrose1   7/28/2003 11:20 am  
To:  boodada   (143 of 596)  
 
  628.143 in reply to 628.121  
 
There is no communicating with the dead. 
  
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  From:  clrose1   7/28/2003 11:21 am  
To:  boodada   (144 of 596)  
 
  628.144 in reply to 628.130  
 
Who says it is a second chance. It is their chance. 
  
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  From:  R/C Floats (RachelsChild)   7/28/2003 3:53 pm  
To:  Bob (BOBKATZHOST)    (145 of 596)  
 
  628.145 in reply to 628.136  
 
Bob, 

What "rules" were broken by the eleven in choosing Matthias to replace Judas? Paul's calling of God was affirmed by Ananias...it was not revealed to him alone, but at the same time to another disciple who then went all on his own to Paul and confirmed God's call. J. Smith had a secret revelation. 

I do not know why God made Paul a special apostle to the gentiles (especially)but I do know that the Apostles in Jerusalem had no problem with him being appointed by God to be an apostle. Acts 21:15-26 

Since you do not accept the infalibilty of the Bible, our discussions are of no value....the Bible has little revelence in your religious practice. 

R/C 
 
  
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  From:  Bob (BOBKATZHOST)    7/28/2003 4:26 pm  
To:  R/C Floats (RachelsChild)   (146 of 596)  
 
  628.146 in reply to 628.145  
 
I am not sure where the concept of the Original 12 Apostles are the only apostles comes from but it is not from me. The only rule that was broken with Matthias becoming an Apostle is the one imposed by some on these forums. I know of no Scriptural restriction. 

I am unaware that Ananias afirmed that Paul was an apostle. I do accept that the other Apostles accepted Paul as an Apostle. 

I am confused as to your remark about the Prophet Joseph Smith having secret revelations. I am unaware of any Prophet who had Public Revelations.

In the Church we have a 4 year cycle of Scripture Study; Old Testament, New Testament, Book of Mormon, and Church History. As you can see from this list we spend half our time studying the Bible. The Bible has great relevance in our Religious Practice.

Bob 

 

 
  
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  From:  R/C Floats (RachelsChild)   7/28/2003 4:36 pm  
To:  clrose1   (147 of 596)  
 
  628.147 in reply to 628.137  
 
There was no need for prophets after the Word of God was completed. Any man/women who has a revelation of new scripture is a false prophet. 

OT prophets were used of God to warn the people of the consequences of their turning from worshipping God to their worship of false gods and idols. Over and over God sent prophets to the people to warn them to repent of their idolatrous ways. Amos confirmmed in Amos 3:7 that God would not punish the people without first sending prophets to them to warn them to turn back to loving God with all their heart/soul/might. 

Today the Bible instructs and warns us of everything we need to know. 1 Timothy 3:15-17 Hebrews 4:12 

R/C 
 
  
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  From:  R/C Floats (RachelsChild)   7/28/2003 4:45 pm  
To:  Bob (BOBKATZHOST)    (148 of 596)  
 
  628.148 in reply to 628.146  
 
Dear Bob, 

Relevance is not enough my friend, either it is, or isn't, the Word of God. Why not get totally on or off the fence about the Bible? 

It is my practice to read the Bible everyday.I read other Christian books/literature but God's word, the Bible,,is the only book I believe is God breathed, inspired of Him. 

R/C
 
  
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  From:  Bob (BOBKATZHOST)    7/28/2003 4:57 pm  
To:  R/C Floats (RachelsChild)   (149 of 596)  
 
  628.149 in reply to 628.148  
 
The Bible is the Word of God as it was originally penned by the Prophets. However, I have no confidence that what we have now is true to what the Prophets originally penned.
Bob 

 

 
  
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  From:  boodada   7/29/2003 6:41 am  
To:  clrose1   (150 of 596)  
 
  628.150 in reply to 628.143  
 
You said: 
There is no communicating with the dead. 
Boodada says: 
Then how do the dead know? 

 
  
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  From:  boodada   7/29/2003 6:42 am  
To:  clrose1   (151 of 596)  
 
  628.151 in reply to 628.144  
 
You said: 
Who says it is a second chance. It is their chance. 
Boodada says: 
What chance? 

Where does the bible say people deserve a chance? 

Where do people in the bible get a second chance at any kind of 
redemotion after they die? 

It's not there and you know it
 
  
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  From:  Minister Falcon (OSMFalcon)     7/29/2003 7:19 am  
To:  Bob (BOBKATZHOST)    (152 of 596)  
 
  628.152 in reply to 628.135  
 
That would contradict the statement Jesus commanded the apostles.  Jesus words does not come back void.  So I disagree with your theology based upon the word of God.  
         

 
  
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  From:  Bob (BOBKATZHOST)    7/29/2003 7:33 am  
To:  Minister Falcon (OSMFalcon)    (153 of 596)  
 
  628.153 in reply to 628.152  
 
Which Statement are you referring to?
Bob 

 

 
  
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  From:  clrose1   7/29/2003 10:40 am  
To:  R/C Floats (RachelsChild)   (154 of 596)  
 
  628.154 in reply to 628.145  
 
The bible has a lot of relevance to the LDS person. 
  
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  From:  clrose1   7/29/2003 10:42 am  
To:  R/C Floats (RachelsChild)   (155 of 596)  
 
  628.155 in reply to 628.147  
 
Why would the word of God ever be completed. Times change, seasons change, our way of life changes. God would continue to guide His children because He loves each and every one of them. No, prophets are something that God has given us to help us out in our daily lives. 
  
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  From:  clrose1   7/29/2003 10:46 am  
To:  boodada   (156 of 596)  
 
  628.156 in reply to 628.150  
 
The dead know without me communicating with them. 
  
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  From:  clrose1   7/29/2003 10:47 am  
To:  boodada   (157 of 596)  
 
  628.157 in reply to 628.151  
 
LDS don't believe we are giving people a second chance. All people will recieve their proper chance. It is not up to us to decide when you or anybody else has had that entire chance, so we baptize for all dead. 
  
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  From:  boodada   7/29/2003 11:04 am  
To:  clrose1   (158 of 596)  
 
  628.158 in reply to 628.156  
 
You said: 
The dead know without me communicating with them. 
Boodada says: 
HOW DO THEY KNOW? 

What is it with your avoidance of this question/issue?
 
  
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  From:  boodada   7/29/2003 11:05 am  
To:  clrose1   (159 of 596)  
 
  628.159 in reply to 628.157  
 
Then explain Hebrews 9:27 for starters 
  
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   From:  boodada   7/29/2003 11:05 am  
To:  clrose1   (160 of 596)  
 
  628.160 in reply to 628.157  
 
Why didn't anyone in the scriptures ever teach us to baptize 
for the dead? 
  
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From:  Bob (BOBKATZHOST)    7/29/2003 11:16 am  
To:  boodada   (161 of 596)  
 
  628.161 in reply to 628.160  
 
Because not everything of God is in the Scriptures
Bob 

 

 
  
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  From:  boodada   7/29/2003 1:20 pm  
To:  Bob (BOBKATZHOST)    (162 of 596)  
 
  628.162 in reply to 628.161  
 
Don't you think this would be a really important teaching? 
Ok, let's say it's not in the scriptures, where is the evidence 
that the early church practiced it?
 
  
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  From:  clrose1   7/29/2003 1:54 pm  
To:  boodada   (163 of 596)  
 
  628.163 in reply to 628.158  
 
I don't know how they know? I'm not there. It could be that they are watching and know things that are pertaining to them. It could be that God has angels watching and they let them know. 
  
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  From:  clrose1   7/29/2003 1:56 pm  
To:  boodada   (164 of 596)  
 
  628.164 in reply to 628.159  
 
All that says is that after the death there is a judgement. I don't see a timeline there. It doesn't say how much after death that judgement comes. 
  
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  From:  clrose1   7/29/2003 1:57 pm  
To:  boodada   (165 of 596)  
 
  628.165 in reply to 628.160  
 
We don't know. It could be that we don't have all the scriptures. 
  
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  From:  R/C Floats (RachelsChild)   7/29/2003 2:52 pm  
To:  clrose1   (166 of 596)  
 
  628.166 in reply to 628.155  
 
Creation itself, the predictable cycles of the sun, moon and stars, declare a God who is faithful, unchanging. You get up every day and God did not change the heavens or create new seasons. (Isaiah 45:5-7) 

Jesus Christ came to be our Savior and He is our high priest (Hebrews 4:14 - 16)and mediator (1 Tim.2:4&5) before God. We can go directly to God thru Jesus, we have no need of prophets...we have the word of God. (Hebrews 4;12, 2 Timothy 2:15-16) 

R/C
 
  
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  From:  R/C Floats (RachelsChild)   7/29/2003 3:01 pm  
To:  clrose1   (167 of 596)  
 
  628.167 in reply to 628.157  
 
This is ridiculous....how can you find all the dead?? What if that person doesn't want your baptism, what if they already were baptized? What if you miss one, or ten or thousands of souls? What if you mix up one family with another? Can you baptize more then once for the same dead soul? etc. etc. 
R/C 

 
  
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  From:  Minister Falcon (OSMFalcon)     7/29/2003 4:01 pm  
To:  Bob (BOBKATZHOST)    (168 of 596)  
 
  628.168 in reply to 628.153  
 
628.134 in reply to 628.103  Scripture

628.135 in reply to 628.134 your statement contradicts scripture quoted in the above.

Matthew 28:18-20
18 And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. 
19 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 
20 teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age." Amen.


I don't see the loss of any of Christ's authority, if anything I see the increase in the believers.  Authority did not end with the apostles, it was a command by Jesus to make disciples of all nations, teaching them to observe all things that He commanded the apostles to do and observe.  It is called the Great Commission by most Christians.  

Joe Smith might have been a prophet, I don't know.  However, I can tell you this, if you believe that these scriptures are telling you that all of Christ's authority and the power and authority that was given to us by Christ is no longer applicable or enforced, then you are hearing from a spirit of error.  For it is written that these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues;  they will take up serpents; and if they drink anything deadly, it will by no means hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover."  Believers still exist so therefore the power of Jesus Christ still exist in the believer. 


Did you tap in to view message for the continuation of my posting?

         

 
  
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  From:  boodada   7/29/2003 6:11 pm  
To:  clrose1   (169 of 596)  
 
  628.169 in reply to 628.163  
 
You said: 
I don't know how they know? I'm not there. It could be that they are watching and know things that are pertaining to them. It could be that God has angels watching and they let them know. 
Boodada says: 
So let me get this straight 

You believe God wants you to baptize for the dead even though 
there is nothing in the bible about it, there is nothing in 
early church history about it...and you have no way at all of 
knowing if these dead people have a clue what you are doing on 
earth 

And yet you keep doing it? 

Please tell me how baptizing a dead guy gives him a chance he 
never had, considering all you're doing is pouring water over 
a proxy (I am assuming) and nothing else
 
  
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  From:  boodada   7/29/2003 6:13 pm  
To:  clrose1   (170 of 596)  
 
  628.170 in reply to 628.165  
 
You said: 
We don't know. It could be that we don't have all the scriptures. 
Boodada says: 
What did the Holy Spirit do with them?
 
  
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  From:  boodada   7/29/2003 6:25 pm  
To:  clrose1   (171 of 596)  
 
  628.171 in reply to 628.165  
 
Ecclesiastes 9:5 
For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing; they have no further reward, and even the memory of them is forgotten. 
Comments?
 
  
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  From:  clrose1   7/29/2003 6:57 pm  
To:  R/C Floats (RachelsChild)   (172 of 596)  
 
  628.172 in reply to 628.166  
 
Yeah... I agree with what you have written here. 
  
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  From:  clrose1   7/29/2003 7:01 pm  
To:  R/C Floats (RachelsChild)   (173 of 596)  
 
  628.173 in reply to 628.167  
 
Those are good questions. 
<<<how can you find all the dead??>>> 
We are doing our genealogy and starting from that point. There is plenty of work to be done just on that alone. We believe that during the millenium (and I can't remember where this comes from) that those who are wanting the ordinance performed for them and haven't had it will be made known to us in some way. 

<<<What if that person doesn't want your baptism, what if they already were baptized?>>> 

It is always the persons choice to accept it or reject it. 

<<<What if you miss one, or ten or thousands of souls?>>> 
This will be taken care of in it's own due course. 

<<<What if you mix up one family with another?>>> 
The Lord will help us straighten that out in the last days. 

<<<Can you baptize more then once for the same dead soul? etc. etc. >>> 

It has been done a couple of times. Errors of men and all.
 
  
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  From:  clrose1   7/29/2003 7:04 pm  
To:  boodada   (174 of 596)  
 
  628.174 in reply to 628.169  
 
It is being done in proxy on their behalf because baptism is a requirement. 
Jesus set the ultimate example of a proxy for all of us and all of our sisn. You should at least see that.
 
  
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  From:  clrose1   7/29/2003 7:07 pm  
To:  boodada   (175 of 596)  
 
  628.175 in reply to 628.170  
 
You'll have to ask Him that... 
  
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  From:  clrose1   7/29/2003 7:09 pm  
To:  boodada   (176 of 596)  
 
  628.176 in reply to 628.171  
 
Who is really dead? And what is the purpose of coming to Christ based on the way you seem to be interpretting this scripture. 
  
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  From:  boodada   7/29/2003 7:15 pm  
To:  clrose1   (177 of 596)  
 
  628.177 in reply to 628.174  
 
You said: 
It is being done in proxy on their behalf because baptism is a requirement. 
Jesus set the ultimate example of a proxy for all of us and all of our sisn. You should at least see that. 

Boodada says: 
Ultimate proxy? 

Jesus died on a cross for our sins. 

Do Mormons crucify by proxy?
 
  
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  From:  boodada   7/29/2003 7:16 pm  
To:  clrose1   (178 of 596)  
 
  628.178 in reply to 628.175  
 
He's already answered the question 
66 books and every one of them gold
 
  
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  From:  boodada   7/29/2003 7:18 pm  
To:  clrose1   (179 of 596)  
 
  628.179 in reply to 628.176  
 
You said: 
Who is really dead? 
Boodada says: 
Those who are spiritually and physically dead 

You said: 
And what is the purpose of coming to Christ based on the way you seem to be interpretting this scripture. 

Boodada says: 
Huh?
 
  
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   From:  R/C Floats (RachelsChild)   7/29/2003 7:35 pm  
To:  clrose1   (180 of 596)  
 
  628.180 in reply to 628.173  
 
How can a person accept or reject Baptism if they are already dead? The Bible says a gulf exists between the living and the dead and no one can cross it. Luke 16: 26..."and besides all this, between us and them is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can these pass to you." 

Jesus set the example... He was publically baptized. He told us to go out and make believers of the lost and then to baptize them. This was to be done when they were living, no mention of researching dead relatives to baptize them. 

Have you not read 2 Corinthians 6:2b? "...behold now is the accepted time: behold, NOW is the day of salvation." 

1 Timothy 1:4 counsels this: "... nor give heed to fables or endless genealogies which cause disputes rather then godly edification." 
 
  
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From:  clrose1   7/30/2003 9:11 am  
To:  boodada   (181 of 596)  
 
  628.181 in reply to 628.177  
 
No... I was pointing out that when Christ died for all of our sins, he did so by proxy. 
  
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  From:  clrose1   7/30/2003 9:12 am  
To:  boodada   (182 of 596)  
 
  628.182 in reply to 628.178  
 
I agree that the 66 books in the Bible are gold. I also say any other words of God are also gold. 
  
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  From:  clrose1   7/30/2003 9:13 am  
To:  boodada   (183 of 596)  
 
  628.183 in reply to 628.179  
 
All will be resurrected. All will live again. Different places though. 
  
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  From:  clrose1   7/30/2003 9:18 am  
To:  R/C Floats (RachelsChild)   (184 of 596)  
 
  628.184 in reply to 628.180  
 
It seems to me that Jesus crossed the gulf when he went to preach to the spirits in prison. For what purpose did he preach to the spirits in prison if they could not recieve the ordinances of salvation? 
By doing the baptisms by proxy is not actually crossing the gulf though. Can God not go to those who have died? Can God not come to us? Can God ask His angels to help out in this? 

I do know that today is the day of salvation. Now tell me, what about people who have not had any opportunity to hear of Christ because of where they live? What about them? Is God a respector of persons? It seems to me, without baptism being done for them they are condemned to hell. Not so in LDS theology. They all recieve their chance. 

If you are taking literally Now is the day of salvation, then you missed the boat... That was written quite a bit before you were born. 

As far as your 1 Timothy thing. Anything that leads to contentions and disputes would be a bad thing.
 
  
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  From:  boodada   7/30/2003 9:26 am  
To:  clrose1   (185 of 596)  
 
  628.185 in reply to 628.183  
 
Ok, where can we find anything from the bible or early church 
history about baptism of the dead? 
How do the dead know they have been baptized by proxy? 

Why baptism, given that it is faith and not baptism that saves 
a person? 

Show all work
 
  
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  From:  clrose1   7/30/2003 9:40 am  
To:  boodada   (186 of 596)  
 
  628.186 in reply to 628.185  
 
You've already been pointed to Corinthians. I already know the arguments that you will have against it, as I have seen them. I have looked at it in context and found I get the same meaning out of it. 
You also don't recognize prophets in our day, nor do you recognize other scripture. 

We don't know how the dead know they have been baptized by proxy. We just know the Lord has asked us to do it, and that they can choose to accept it or reject it. We must leave that in the Lords hands. I trust Him. 

Faith in the Lord, Jesus Christ is the first principle of the gospel. This does not do away with baptism as a necessary ordinance. Even Christ was baptized to fulfil all righteousness.
 
  
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  From:  boodada   7/30/2003 11:08 am  
To:  clrose1   (187 of 596)  
 
  628.187 in reply to 628.186  
 
So why didn't the Lord institute this practice 2000 years ago? 
Think how much geneaological research we might have at our disposal
 
  
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  From:  clrose1   7/30/2003 11:11 am  
To:  boodada   (188 of 596)  
 
  628.188 in reply to 628.187  
 
I don't have that answer for you... It could be possible that it was going on at the time. People did know their genealogies back then. 
  
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  From:  Bob (BOBKATZHOST)    7/30/2003 11:13 am  
To:  boodada   (189 of 596)  
 
  628.189 in reply to 628.187  
 
So why didn't He institute the Practice with Adam and Eve? Just think of all the work that would have been done that we wold not now have to do.
Bob 

 

 
  
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  From:  boodada   7/30/2003 11:20 am  
To:  Bob (BOBKATZHOST)    (190 of 596)  
 
  628.190 in reply to 628.189  
 
Exactly! 
He didn't, especially since we are saved by faith and not by 
baptism or any other righteous work 

Why don't you guys do crucifixion by proxy rather than baptism -- that would make more sense?
 
  
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  From:  clrose1   7/30/2003 11:27 am  
To:  boodada   (191 of 596)  
 
  628.191 in reply to 628.190  
 
Crucifixion by proxy would make no sense. Jesus did that for all. He did not get baptised for all. 
And just so you know... Baptism is a requirement, but it is not necessarily the saving item. There's a lot more to it than that.
 
  
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  From:  Bob (BOBKATZHOST)    7/30/2003 11:34 am  
To:  boodada   (192 of 596)  
 
  628.192 in reply to 628.190  
 
For that matter why did not Jesus come during the lives of Adam And Eve? He could have taken upon himself the sins of the World then and we would have had the Gospel mush longer. No need for Moses and that silly Mosiac law. Just think of the State of Christianity if it had been around since Adam and Eve.

Perhaps we were not ready for everything back then. Perhaps Jesus came when we were ready for Him to come. Perhaps He institutes things when we are ready for them. 

If Baptism is not necessary then why did Jesus repeatedly say it was necessary. If it is not necessary then why was He baptised?

Bob 

 

 
  
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  From:  Bob (BOBKATZHOST)    7/30/2003 1:11 pm  
To:  shoogiepie   (195 of 596)  
 
  628.195 in reply to 628.194  
 
Who is Shoogiepie?

Jesus told Nicodemus that all must be Baptised by water and fire. We are baptised by Water when we are baptised by immursion by one with the proper Authority. We are baptised by fire when we are confirmed by the laying on of hands and given the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Jesus was Baptised as an example to us to show us that if we are to Follow Jesus we must be Baptised also. He was also Baptised because he had to be baptised to complete His part of the plan of Salvation.

Bob 

 

 
  
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  From:  R/C Floats (RachelsChild)   7/30/2003 1:40 pm  
To:  clrose1   (196 of 596)  
 
  628.196 in reply to 628.184  
 

The word of God is LIVING! Today means just that, today! Each and every day the Bible can speak to the heart anew...it transends time. 

God is not a respecter of persons.He can and will save all who have a heart for Him. Everyone will have their opportunity while living! From scripture we do know God had compassion on the lost. Nineveh (pagans) being one example and He sent Jonah. He sent Philip tp the Ethiopian eunech who was searching for Him. ( Acts 8;26-40)In that case God did use an angel to assist Philip too. Note: Baptism has never saved anyone! 

R/C 

 
  
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  From:  clrose1   7/30/2003 2:27 pm  
To:  shoogiepie   (197 of 596)  
 
  628.197 in reply to 628.193  
 
Jesus was crucified for all because that was the job that He took on. 
He has asked us to take on the baptism as a proxy for those who have passed on. Since it is He that asked, I don't question Him on the why. It is enough that He has asked it of us. 

Since Jesus told us that baptism is necessary for salvation, that is what we live by. You, however were acting like it is the only thing that would be necessary in the place of faith... I was merely pointing out that there is more than just faith in the Lord that is required.
 
  
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  From:  clrose1   7/30/2003 2:31 pm  
To:  R/C Floats (RachelsChild)   (198 of 596)  
 
  628.198 in reply to 628.196  
 
The verse didn't say today... It said NOW... I was also talking about the literal translation... I agree with you that the word of God is today. Remember, even after I die, the word of God lives on and doesn't die with me. 
Not all people are getting that opportunity. Some never hear of Jesus Christ, yet have lived good and honorable lives. Where is their chance while they are living? 

I never said that baptism alone will save anybody. I don't believe it will.
 
  
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  From:  boodada   7/30/2003 2:43 pm  
To:  Bob (BOBKATZHOST)    (199 of 596)  
 
  628.199 in reply to 628.195  
 
You said: 
Who is Shoogiepie? 
Boodada says: 
Sorry, family member is using my stuff and that's his account 

I didn't even realize it until I saw your message 

You said: 
Jesus told Nicodemus that all must be Baptised by water and fire. 

Boodada says: 
Where does Jesus tell Nicodemus that we must be baptized by water? 
Where does Jesus tell Nicodemus that we must be be baptized by fire? 

You said: 
We are baptised by Water when we are baptised by immursion by one with the proper Authority. 

Boodada says: 
Proper authority? 

You said: 
Jesus was Baptised as an example to us to show us that if we are to Follow Jesus we must be Baptised also. 

Boodada says: 
He also said we should give to the poor and do other good works 

Do you do those for the dead? 

You said: 
He was also Baptised because he had to be baptised to complete His part of the plan of Salvation. 

Boodada says: 
How does baptism complete the plan of salvation? 

 
  
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   From:  boodada   7/30/2003 2:44 pm  
To:  clrose1   (200 of 596)  
 
  628.200 in reply to 628.197  
 
You said: 
Since Jesus told us that baptism is necessary for salvation, that is what we live by. 
Boodada says: 
Chapter and verse?
 
  
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From:  Bob (BOBKATZHOST)    7/30/2003 3:05 pm  
To:  boodada   (201 of 596)  
 
  628.201 in reply to 628.199  
 
Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be aborn bagain, he cannot csee the kingdom of God.

4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?

5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be aborn of bwater and of the cSpirit, he cannot denter into the kingdom of God.

(New Testament | John 3:3 - 5)

 

Proper Authority is the Authority given from God to do His work on this Earth. It is called the Priesthood.

Yes, Jesus did say that we should give to the poor and do other good works. We do other ordaniences for the Dead. I suppose you could call them Good Works. 

How much do you know of the Plan of Salvation?

Bob 

  




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Edited 7/31/2003 12:22:17 AM ET by Bob (BOBKATZHOST) 
  
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  From:  boodada   7/30/2003 6:10 pm  
To:  Bob (BOBKATZHOST)    (202 of 596)  
 
  628.202 in reply to 628.201  
 
You said: 
Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be aborn bagain, he cannot csee the kingdom of God. 
4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born? 

5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be aborn of bwater and of the cSpirit, he cannot denter into the kingdom of God. 

(New Testament | John 3:3 - 5) 

Boodada says: 
This is your verse that says Jesus commands water baptism? 

Okay, where does Jesus say Nicodemus should be baptized? 

And since John is already baptizing people in the Jordan, why doesn't Jesus mention that? 

You said: 
Proper Authority is the Authority given from God to do His work on this Earth. It is called the Priesthood. 

Boodada says: 
Did Philip have the priesthood? 

You said: 
Yes, Jesus did say that we should give to the poor and do other good works. We do other ordaniences for the Dead. I suppose you could call them Good Works. 

Boodada says: 
You do other ordinances for the dead? Like what? 

You said: 
How much do you know of the Plan of Salvation? 

Boodada says: 
More than you... 

 
  
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  From:  R/C Floats (RachelsChild)   7/30/2003 6:14 pm  
To:  Bob (BOBKATZHOST)    (203 of 596)  
 
  628.203 in reply to 628.201  
 
Bob, 

This is off topic but why do you have such a mean looking signature? Is it supposed to be N/American or what? 

R/C 

 
  
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  From:  Bob (BOBKATZHOST)    7/30/2003 9:21 pm  
To:  R/C Floats (RachelsChild)   (204 of 596)  
 
  628.204 in reply to 628.203  
 
A friend of mine made the sig for me. I don't think it is north american. I think it is more int he style of Conan the Barbarian. 
Bob 

  




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Edited 7/31/2003 12:22:44 AM ET by Bob (BOBKATZHOST) 
  
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  From:  Bob (BOBKATZHOST)    7/30/2003 9:30 pm  
To:  boodada   (205 of 596)  
 
  628.205 in reply to 628.202  
 
In the Scripture I just posted Jesus tells Nicodemus that all must be Baptised. That includes Nicodemus.

Since Phillip was an Apostle, I believe he had the Priesthood.

The Ordaniences of the Temple are forthe Living and the Dead. The exception to that rule is Baptism which is generally not done for the Living in the Temple. That is done in local Fonts although it could be done in any body of Water.

You think you know the Plan of Salvation? Pri'thee tell me about it.

Bob 

 

 
  
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  From:  boodada   7/30/2003 10:43 pm  
To:  Bob (BOBKATZHOST)    (206 of 596)  
 
  628.206 in reply to 628.205  
 
You said: 
In the Scripture I just posted Jesus tells Nicodemus that all must be Baptised. That includes Nicodemus. 
Boodada says: 
Where is the word baptism in that scripture, Bob? 

Can you find it for me? 

You said: 
Since Phillip was an Apostle, I believe he had the Priesthood. 

Boodada says: 
How come he was able to successfully baptize the Ethiopian in Acts 8 but the Samaritans getting baptized didn't take? 

You said: 
You think you know the Plan of Salvation? Pri'thee tell me about it. 

Boodada says: 
Try Ephesians 2:8-10 and Titus 3:5-6 and see where that gets you 


 
  
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  From:  Bob (BOBKATZHOST)    7/31/2003 5:58 am  
To:  boodada   (207 of 596)  
 
  628.207 in reply to 628.206  
 
Born of Water is a reference to Water Baptism. 

Where is the word Trinity in the Bible? Can you find it for me?

I just re-read Acts 8 and see where both the Ethopian and the Samarians were Baptised. I do not see where the Samarian Baptism did not take as you said.

I have re-read the verses in Ephesians and Titus and they speak only of a very small piece of the Plan of Salvation. there is much more to it than that. 

Bob 

 

 
  
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  From:  boodada   7/31/2003 6:58 am  
To:  Bob (BOBKATZHOST)    (208 of 596)  
 
  628.208 in reply to 628.207  
 
You said: 
Born of Water is a reference to Water Baptism. 
Boodada says: 
Really? How do you know that? Why didn't Jesus say "baptized 
in water." He _did_ have no problem with using the word. 

Do you really think the water itself does anything? 

You said: 
Where is the word Trinity in the Bible? Can you find it for me? 

Boodada says: 
The word is not in the bible 

Neither is the word "full apostasy" 

You said: 
I just re-read Acts 8 and see where both the Ethopian and the Samarians were Baptised. I do not see where the Samarian Baptism did not take as you said. 

Boodada says: 
Then you don't read very well. 

Why did Peter and the whole church have to re-baptize the Samaritans??? 

You notice they didn't receive the Holy Ghost when Philip baptized them 

You said: 
I have re-read the verses in Ephesians and Titus and they speak only of a very small piece of the Plan of Salvation. there is much more to it than that. 

Boodada says: 
According to you, what is the plan of salvation? 

 
  
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  From:  clrose1   7/31/2003 7:12 am  
To:  boodada   (209 of 596)  
 
  628.209 in reply to 628.200  
 
In John chapter 3, when the Savior was talking to Nicodemus. 
  
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  From:  boodada   7/31/2003 8:25 am  
To:  clrose1   (210 of 596)  
 
  628.210 in reply to 628.209  
 
You said: 
In John chapter 3, when the Savior was talking to Nicodemus. 
Boodada says: 
Where is the word "baptism" here?
 
  
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  From:  Bob (BOBKATZHOST)    7/31/2003 9:36 am  
To:  boodada   (211 of 596)  
 
  628.211 in reply to 628.208  
 
I am sure Jesus did not have a problem using the word Baptise if He used that word at all. We do not know what Jesus actually said. Jesus did not write any of the words contained in the Bible (or any other Scripture). I know the Word Baptise is a translation from the Greek but as far as I know, Jesus did not speak Greek. He spoke Aremeic (sp). Did John accurately write down and translate what Jesus actually said? I don't know. Jesus did not have people running around after him writing down every word He said. The Gospels were written many years after the fact.

The water itself does nothing. The Ordanience performed by one with proper authority does much. 

Full Apostasy is not found in the Bible but there are indications of the Apostasy in the Bible. 2 Thess 2:3 is one such indication.

Sorry, I don't see where Peter and the whole Church had to rebaptise them. I do see that Phillip Baptised them and then The Apostles came and gave them the Gift of the Holy Ghost.

I have not the time nor energy to explain to you the entire Plan of Salvation here in this forum. If you wish to learn of the Plan, please contact the LDS Missionaries in your area and ask about the first disscussion.

The Plan of Salvation answers certain questions:

Where was I before I came to this Earth? What happened there?

Why am I here on this Earth? What is expected of me?

Where am I going? What is the process?

Bob 

  




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Edited 7/31/2003 1:25:19 PM ET by Bob (BOBKATZHOST) 
  
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  From:  clrose1   7/31/2003 10:00 am  
To:  boodada   (212 of 596)  
 
  628.212 in reply to 628.210  
 
You've been told about that one. 
  
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  From:  boodada   7/31/2003 10:50 am  
To:  Bob (BOBKATZHOST)    (213 of 596)  
 
  628.213 in reply to 628.211  
 
You said: 
I am sure Jesus did not have a problem using the word Baptise if He used that word at all. We do not know what Jesus actually said. 
Boodada says: 
Are you serious? You think the apostles just made this stuff up? 

How do you know they got ANY of it right? 

You said: 
Jesus did not write any of the words contained in the Bible (or any other Scripture). I know the Word Baptise is a translation from the Greek but as far as I know, Jesus did not speak Greek. He spoke Aremeic (sp) 

Boodada says: 
What does this have to do with anything, Bob? 

You said: 
Did John accurately write down and translate what Jesus actually said? I don't know. Jesus did not have people running around after him writing down every word He said. The Gospels were written many years after the fact. 

Boodada says: 
Jesus promised that the Holy Spirit would come and remind them of 
all things 

You said: 
Full Apostasy is not found in the Bible but there are indications of the Apostasy in the Bible. 2 Thess 2:3 is one such indication. 

Boodada says: 
Falling away, yes; total falling off the earth, no 

You said: 
Sorry, I don't see where Peter and the whole Church had to rebaptise them. I do see that Phillip Baptised them and then The Apostles came and gave them the Gift of the Holy Ghost. 

Boodada says: 
Why didn't it work when Philip did it? 

You said: 
I have not the time nor energy to explain to you the entire Plan of Salvation here in this forum. If you wish to learn of the Plan, please contact the LDS Missionaries in your area and ask about the first disscussion. 

Boodada says: 
God forbid...and He does 

It's real simple Bob 

John 20:30-31 

 
  
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  From:  boodada   7/31/2003 10:51 am  
To:  clrose1   (214 of 596)  
 
  628.214 in reply to 628.212  
 
So you read "born of water" and assume Jesus means baptize people 
in water? 
Why?
 
  
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  From:  Bob (BOBKATZHOST)    7/31/2003 11:48 am  
To:  boodada   (215 of 596)  
 
  628.215 in reply to 628.213  
 
Phillip Baptised them. The Apostles gave them the Gift of the Holy Ghost. Two separate ordanences. Both are necessary. 
Bob 

  




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Edited 7/31/2003 2:48:32 PM ET by Bob (BOBKATZHOST) 
  
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  From:  clrose1   7/31/2003 12:08 pm  
To:  boodada   (216 of 596)  
 
  628.216 in reply to 628.214  
 
Taken with modern day revelation, we know that's what it means. 
  
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  From:  boodada   7/31/2003 1:24 pm  
To:  clrose1   (217 of 596)  
 
  628.217 in reply to 628.216  
 
Ah, modern revelation 
It sweeps away the past 

Including prohibiting Negroes from being priests 
 
  
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  From:  clrose1   7/31/2003 2:24 pm  
To:  boodada   (218 of 596)  
 
  628.218 in reply to 628.217  
 
It seems that in times past there was a lot more people who could not hold the priesthood of God. Since you think the LDS are prejudice, what do you think about God doing that? 
  
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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    7/31/2003 4:29 pm  
To:  clrose1   (219 of 596)  
 
  628.219 in reply to 628.218  
 
Skin color was never a consideration in Gods Priesthood.

 

Skin color is a prejudice of mans doing.

 

David



David A. Brown
Basic Christian: Forum
www.BasicChristian.org

 
  
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   From:  Bob (BOBKATZHOST)    7/31/2003 6:15 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (220 of 596)  
 
  628.220 in reply to 628.219  
 
How do you know this?
Bob 
 
  
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From:  David (DavidABrown)    7/31/2003 6:37 pm  
To:  Bob (BOBKATZHOST)    (221 of 596)  
 
  628.221 in reply to 628.220  
 
A thorough reading of the Bible specifically the Old Testament Laws of God given to Moses will reveal that skin color was never an issue regarding Priesthood. Genealogy determined Priesthood and only a few physical handicaps prevented the entitled Priest from serving at the alter but the person could still partake in the food and the fellowship and retained their rights as Priests and their children could officiate.

 

David



David A. Brown
Basic Christian: Forum
www.BasicChristian.org

 
  
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  From:  R/C Floats (RachelsChild)   7/31/2003 6:44 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (222 of 596)  
 
  628.222 in reply to 628.221  
 
Hi David, 

Not to mention that God made the skin colors to begin with!!! 

R/C
 
  
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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    7/31/2003 7:04 pm  
To:  R/C Floats (RachelsChild)   (223 of 596)  
 
  628.223 in reply to 628.222  
 
Yes,

Thanks :o)

Good Point!

 



David A. Brown
Basic Christian: Forum
www.BasicChristian.org




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Edited 7/31/2003 10:08:34 PM ET by David (DAVIDABROWN) 
  
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  From:  Bob (BOBKATZHOST)    7/31/2003 7:15 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (224 of 596)  
 
  628.224 in reply to 628.221  
 
What colour were the Levites? Being one myself I kinda know the answer. 

For that matter what colour was Adam and Eve?

Bob 

  




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Edited 7/31/2003 10:18:40 PM ET by Bob (BOBKATZHOST) 
  
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  From:  boodada   7/31/2003 8:54 pm  
To:  clrose1   (225 of 596)  
 
  628.225 in reply to 628.218  
 
You said: 
It seems that in times past there was a lot more people who could not hold the priesthood of God. 
Boodada says: 
In the old covenant, only the line of Aaron could be eligible 
for being priests, yes 

You said: 
Since you think the LDS are prejudice, what do you think about God doing that? 

Boodada says: 
God had His reasons for working salvation from one race of people, 
and a priesthood through one particular family line 

But here's the thing -- with the new covenant that all changed 

So you guys put something into your religion that God had 
removed for almost 2000 years 

Shame shame
 
  
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  From:  clrose1   8/1/2003 5:39 am  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (226 of 596)  
 
  628.226 in reply to 628.219  
 
God told you this? 
  
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  From:  clrose1   8/1/2003 5:41 am  
To:  boodada   (227 of 596)  
 
  628.227 in reply to 628.225  
 
If God tells you to do something you better do it. Now, prove to me that the priesthood was held by all believers in Christ during this 2000 years that you are talking about... 
  
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  From:  boodada   8/1/2003 7:29 am  
To:  clrose1   (228 of 596)  
 
  628.228 in reply to 628.227  
 
If God tells you to do something you better do it. Now, prove to me that the priesthood was held by all believers in Christ during this 2000 years that you are talking about... 
Boodada says: 
That's easy 

There are two priesthoods that are pertinent to the Christian 

The first one belongs to Christ: 

Hebrews 7:24 
"but because Jesus lives forever, he has a permanent priesthood." 

And the second one belongs to all believers: 

1 Peter 2:5 
"you also, like living stones, are being built into a spiritual house to be a holy priesthood, offering spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ." 

 
  
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  From:  clrose1   8/1/2003 7:44 am  
To:  boodada   (229 of 596)  
 
  628.229 in reply to 628.228  
 
Keep in mind that he is talking to the people as a whole. Nowhere in the scriptures can you find that man can take the honor of the priesthood onto himself. It has to come through somebody having the authority to do so. 
  
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  From:  boodada   8/1/2003 7:47 am  
To:  clrose1   (230 of 596)  
 
  628.230 in reply to 628.229  
 
You said: 
Keep in mind that he is talking to the people as a whole. Nowhere in the scriptures can you find that man can take the honor of the priesthood onto himself. It has to come through somebody having the authority to do so. 
Boodada says: 
You don't get it, DO you? 

There are two priesthoods 

1) Melchizedek -- which NO MAN can occupy 

2) Believers -- which ALL MEN can occupy 

What is a priest? 

Well, a prophet speaks to us from God, and a priest speaks to 
God from us. Do we need a human priest anymore? 

NO 

That is what Jesus Christ is for!!! 

Don't you see that? 

Your Mormon priesthood is a LIE
 
  
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  From:  clrose1   8/1/2003 8:02 am  
To:  boodada   (231 of 596)  
 
  628.231 in reply to 628.230  
 
I certainly do get it. And God has seen fit to share His priesthood (the Melchezidek) with mankind in our day. 
And the fact that you don't have a priesthood is a LIE.... It is the LIE that made it so the truth had to be restored to the earth.
 
  
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  From:  boodada   8/1/2003 8:14 am  
To:  clrose1   (232 of 596)  
 
  628.232 in reply to 628.231  
 
You said: 
I certainly do get it. 
Boodada says: 
Trust me, you do not. 

Tell you what -- you find me a Christian priest in the bible, 
not a member of the royal priesthood (which is every believer), 
but particular Christians performing the role of priest 

You said: 
And God has seen fit to share His priesthood (the Melchezidek) with mankind in our day. 

Boodada says: 
This is nonsense. Christ shares His priesthood with no one -- unlike the Levites who died one after another, Christ lives forever 

You said: 
And the fact that you don't have a priesthood is a LIE.... It is the LIE that made it so the truth had to be restored to the earth. 

Boodada says: 
Why did the priesthood needed to be restored to earth? 

Jesus said He would always be with us. 

Did He lie?
 
  
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  From:  clrose1   8/1/2003 9:02 am  
To:  boodada   (233 of 596)  
 
  628.233 in reply to 628.232  
 
The Holy Spirit has always been around the earth to help people out. Thus, Jesus has been around through the Holy Spirit. The priesthood of God is so much more than that. 
  
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  From:  boodada   8/1/2003 9:44 am  
To:  clrose1   (234 of 596)  
 
  628.234 in reply to 628.233  
 
You said: 
The Holy Spirit has always been around the earth to help people out. 
Boodada says: 
Then why do you say the church had to be restored? 

You said: 
Thus, Jesus has been around through the Holy Spirit. 

Boodada says: 
See above 

You said: 
The priesthood of God is so much more than that. 

Boodada says: 
Oh? Do tell...
 
  
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  From:  clrose1   8/1/2003 10:51 am  
To:  boodada   (235 of 596)  
 
  628.235 in reply to 628.234  
 
I say the authority had to be restored because it did. 
To learn about the priesthood of God, I invite you to go to an LDS church house. You will probably have to go multiple times.
 
  
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  From:  boodada   8/1/2003 11:10 am  
To:  clrose1   (236 of 596)  
 
  628.236 in reply to 628.235  
 
You said: 
I say the authority had to be restored because it did. 
Boodada says: 
Circular 

You said: 
To learn about the priesthood of God, I invite you to go to an LDS church house. You will probably have to go multiple times. 

Boodada says: 
No thanks 

I read fiction, I don't need to see it acted out 

So you apparently can't answer this at all, huh? 

That should trouble you 

 
  
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  From:  clrose1   8/1/2003 11:17 am  
To:  boodada   (237 of 596)  
 
  628.237 in reply to 628.236  
 
Though it is circular logic, it is true. Just because somebody uses circular logic does not make the item false. 
I can answer this, but I refuse to do so at this time in this forum. The forum that I discuss this is usually in church. If you refuse to go to the church for your answers, that is your choice. I have made my choice to not get into it here.
 
  
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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    8/1/2003 12:17 pm  
To:  Bob (BOBKATZHOST)    (238 of 596)  
 
  628.238 in reply to 628.224  
 
Bob,

 

Should you and your Mormon friends continue to Play and Pretend to be Jewish I think that you should know how Jesus feels about it.

 

Revelation 2:9 .. I (Jesus) know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.

 

For Bible clarity you either belong to the Church or the Jews or the Gentiles the three groups are mutually exclusive.

 

1 Corinthians 10:32 Give none offense, neither to the Jews, nor the Gentiles, nor to the Church of God.

 

David

 



David A. Brown
Basic Christian: Forum
www.BasicChristian.org

 
  
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  From:  Bob (BOBKATZHOST)    8/1/2003 12:27 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (239 of 596)  
 
  628.239 in reply to 628.238  
 
Nice way to sidestep the Question but I will restate it here:

What colour is the Tribe of Levi?

What colour was Adam and Eve?

BTW according to Jewish Law, if your Mother is Jewish you are Jewish. My Mother and Father were Jewish. I was born and Raised Jewish. I am a Convert since the age of 21.. 

Bob 

  




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Edited 8/1/2003 3:53:48 PM ET by Bob (BOBKATZHOST) 
  
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   From:  David (DavidABrown)    8/1/2003 12:40 pm  
To:  Bob (BOBKATZHOST)    (240 of 596)  
 
  628.240 in reply to 628.239  
 
A convert to what? Please Explain!

 

You were Jewish but now you are a Levite Priest? Please Explain!

 

So what is it you where Jewish or you are Jewish?

 

Im not sure of the point you are trying to make obviously you feel that you need to boast about something so maybe you should just say whatever you have to say.

 

As usual the words of Jesus in the Bible are of no meaning or value to you Mormons as you ignore them completely in order to maintain your desires.

 

David



David A. Brown
Basic Christian: Forum
www.BasicChristian.org

 
 
From:  boodada   8/1/2003 12:42 pm  
To:  clrose1   (241 of 596)  
 
  628.241 in reply to 628.237  
 
You said: 
Though it is circular logic, it is true. Just because somebody uses circular logic does not make the item false. 
Boodada says: 
True, but it's an inferior form of argumentation 

You need something more 

You said: 
I can answer this, but I refuse to do so at this time in this forum. The forum that I discuss this is usually in church. If you refuse to go to the church for your answers, that is your choice. I have made my choice to not get into it here. 

Boodada says: 
Cults have secrets 

The gospel is open to all 

 
  
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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    8/1/2003 12:50 pm  
To:  Bob (BOBKATZHOST)    (242 of 596)  
 
  628.242 in reply to 628.240  
 
and .. according to the Jewish Law you have to be a keeper of the Law not just a hearer of the Law.

 

It is pretty well documented that Hitlers Grandmother was Jewish making him also a Jew but obviously not a keeper of the law.

 

The Church is not under the Law but is under Grace however you already knew that except that Moromism is not Christianity so they are under bondage.

 

David



David A. Brown
Basic Christian: Forum
www.BasicChristian.org

 
  
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  From:  Bob (BOBKATZHOST)    8/1/2003 12:56 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (243 of 596)  
 
  628.243 in reply to 628.240  
 
I am a Kohan by Birth. Many years ago, I joined the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

I am Jewish but I am also Christian and LDS.

The Words of the Bible are of no meaning when you take them out of context and twist them to mean things that were not meant. The Rev quote you used was addressed to Smyra.

Bob 

  




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Edited 8/1/2003 4:01:22 PM ET by Bob (BOBKATZHOST) 
  
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  From:  Bob (BOBKATZHOST)    8/1/2003 1:00 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (244 of 596)  
 
  628.244 in reply to 628.242  
 
I don't know if Hitler was Jewish or not. It is not whether his Grandmother was Jewish or not, it is whether his Mother was Jewish. 

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is Christian by definition. 

Why can't you answer the simple questions put to you?

What colour were the Levites?

What colour was Adam and Eve?

Bob 

  




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Edited 8/1/2003 4:00:56 PM ET by Bob (BOBKATZHOST) 
  
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  From:  clrose1   8/1/2003 1:31 pm  
To:  boodada   (245 of 596)  
 
  628.245 in reply to 628.241  
 
It is an inferior form of debate. Yet, truth is truth. I need nothing more than the truth. No matter the debate forums. I know the truth and I follow it. 
Now you are saying that it is secret because I am not saying it here. Would you say the same at the time of Jesus when he refused to answer? This is not secret. I told you exactly how you can get the answers. It is simply me refusing to do it here.
 
  
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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    8/1/2003 1:32 pm  
To:  Bob (BOBKATZHOST)    (246 of 596)  
 
  628.246 in reply to 628.244  
 
They were People Color whatever People Color God chose to color them.

 

Adam actually means Red so Adam may have been red.

 

I like people who explain away the teachings of Jesus as not for them. 

 

It shows that you are in good company. Not

 

PS arent you also related to Conan the Barbarian as well, so many affiliations so few reunions. Im actually thinking that Mormonism is like the X-men cartoons, one says Im a wolverine with long claws, another says flames of fire shoot out of my eyes and yet another says, I'm a Levitical Priest.

 

I had forgotten that fantasy is a requirement for all cults!

 

David



David A. Brown
Basic Christian: Forum
www.BasicChristian.org

 
  
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  From:  Bob (BOBKATZHOST)    8/1/2003 2:48 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (247 of 596)  
 
  628.247 in reply to 628.246  
 
I have read X-Men and the entire Marvel series for many years. 

You are obviously unaware of what or who a Kohan is. I suggest that before you mock you do some research.

As far as a Fantasy requirement for a cult, you should know considering that all religion is Cultic by definition.

Bob 
 
  
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  From:  R/C Floats (RachelsChild)   8/1/2003 3:00 pm  
To:  Bob (BOBKATZHOST)    (248 of 596)  
 
  628.248 in reply to 628.247  
 
Bob: 

So Kohan is Cohen .....but if you aren't Jewish anymore how could the priesthead apply to you anyway? 

R/C
 
  
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  From:  Bob (BOBKATZHOST)    8/1/2003 4:09 pm  
To:  R/C Floats (RachelsChild)   (249 of 596)  
 
  628.249 in reply to 628.248  
 
Judaism is not merely a religion but a heritage. Regardless of my religious belief, I was born Jewish and will remain Jewish throughout my life and beyond. 
Bob 
 
  
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  From:  R/C Floats (RachelsChild)   8/1/2003 4:13 pm  
To:  Bob (BOBKATZHOST)    (250 of 596)  
 
  628.250 in reply to 628.249  
 
Are you sure the Rabbi's would agree with that? 

R/C
 
  
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  From:  Bob (BOBKATZHOST)    8/1/2003 4:21 pm  
To:  R/C Floats (RachelsChild)   (251 of 596)  
 
  628.251 in reply to 628.250  
 
I am not sure what a Rabbi would say. I would think they agree just on hearing my name. 

Bob 

 

 
  
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  From:  R/C Floats (RachelsChild)   8/1/2003 4:50 pm  
To:  Bob (BOBKATZHOST)    (252 of 596)  
 
  628.252 in reply to 628.251  
 
Maybe but names can be deceiving. About the only reliable proof for genetics is DNA. Records can be wrong or lost or altered or untruthful. 

R/C
 
  
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  From:  Bob (BOBKATZHOST)    8/1/2003 5:02 pm  
To:  R/C Floats (RachelsChild)   (253 of 596)  
 
  628.253 in reply to 628.252  
 
Really? Do you really think that someone has a reliable sample of Levite DNA? Where did they get it?
Bob 

 

 
  
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  From:  R/C Floats (RachelsChild)   8/1/2003 5:06 pm  
To:  Bob (BOBKATZHOST)    (254 of 596)  
 
  628.254 in reply to 628.253  
 
No actually I don't believe they have a sample, nor would they need one. (as far as God is concerned)The need for the Levite pure line ended with Christ's resurrection. 

R/C 
 
  
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  From:  Bob (BOBKATZHOST)    8/1/2003 5:08 pm  
To:  R/C Floats (RachelsChild)   (255 of 596)  
 
  628.255 in reply to 628.254  
 
You recognize that as do I. Others do not recognize Jesus as the Saviour. 
Bob 

  




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Edited 8/1/2003 9:32:02 PM ET by Bob (BOBKATZHOST) 
  
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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    8/1/2003 5:21 pm  
To:  Bob (BOBKATZHOST)    (256 of 596)  
 
  628.256 in reply to 628.252  
 
The Bible, Jesus, God, heaven, hell, Angels, creation, sin, salvation, ect. are reality!

 

Im sorry for you that you are building your life around a Mormon Myth a myth that is all smoke and mirrors and when the light of Jesus Christ shines on it, it will all vanish away and leave you with nothing. It is a myth that seeks to exalt man by name and skin color, so you can boast and be proud and arrogant and rule over others. 

 

Jesus said it is inside of the person that God looks at as He is concerned with the character and the content of ones heart and soul and not the skin color or the name as man looks at.

 

David



David A. Brown
Basic Christian: Forum
www.BasicChristian.org

 
  
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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    8/1/2003 5:24 pm  
To:  Bob (BOBKATZHOST)    (257 of 596)  
 
  628.257 in reply to 628.255  
 
If you recognized the Resurrection of Jesus as God dying for the atonement of your sins you wouldnt call yourself a Levite Priest or a Melchizidak Priest.

 

David



David A. Brown
Basic Christian: Forum
www.BasicChristian.org

 
  
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  From:  R/C Floats (RachelsChild)   8/1/2003 5:27 pm  
To:  Bob (BOBKATZHOST)    (258 of 596)  
 
  628.258 in reply to 628.255  
 

Well, I hope you do recognize Him as the Savior but the Savior found in the Bible. 

R/C 
 
  
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  From:  Bob (BOBKATZHOST)    8/1/2003 5:49 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (259 of 596)  
 
  628.259 in reply to 628.256  
 
I don't disagree with you that the things you mention are reality. However I do disagree that the LDS Teaching are Mythical. Joseph Smith, The Angel Moroni, the Gold Plates, the Brass Plates, etc are just as much a reality as Moses, the Angel Gabrieal, The Individual Books of the Bible, etc. 

God chose one Tribe to hold His Priesthood in times past. In doing so He discriminated against all other tribes and peoples and colours. In the Latter days He chose to give His Priesthood to all mankind. For His own reasons He withheld His Priesthood from certain peoples. This restriction was lifted in 1978 by revelation. 

The Priesthood is not something to Brag about. Rather it is a call to serve, and Serve we do.

Bob 
 
  
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   From:  Bob (BOBKATZHOST)    8/1/2003 5:54 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (260 of 596)  
 
  628.260 in reply to 628.257  
 
The Resurrection of Jesus has nothing to do with the Atonement. Jesus took upon Himself the sins of Man in the Garden. The Final Sacrifice took place upon the cross. The Resurrection on the third day was the breaking of the bounds of Death.

I do not call myself a Levite Priest. I never have. I am a Levite and an Arronite. I do hold the Melchizidak Priesthood. I serve Mankind using the Authority given me by God through those holding the proper authority.

Bob 
 
  
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From:  Bob (BOBKATZHOST)    8/1/2003 5:57 pm  
To:  R/C Floats (RachelsChild)   (261 of 596)  
 
  628.261 in reply to 628.258  
 
He is written of in the Bible but He is not trapped there. He is also written of in the Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants, and the Pearl of Great Price. 

I do recognize Jesus as the Saviour. I read about him in the Scriptures spoken of above.

Bob 

  




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Edited 8/1/2003 8:59:45 PM ET by Bob (BOBKATZHOST) 
  
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  From:  R/C Floats (RachelsChild)   8/1/2003 6:08 pm  
To:  Bob (BOBKATZHOST)    (262 of 596)  
 
  628.262 in reply to 628.261  
 
Back to square one. Thank God Jesus Christ is the Word. Everything we need know to attain salvation and live a godly life, is contained in THE Bible. 

R/C 

 
  
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  From:  Bob (BOBKATZHOST)    8/1/2003 6:10 pm  
To:  R/C Floats (RachelsChild)   (263 of 596)  
 
  628.263 in reply to 628.262  
 
How do you know that everything is contained in the Bible? How do you know that some important tidbit was not excluded?

Yup back to square one.

Bob 

  




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Edited 8/1/2003 9:11:08 PM ET by Bob (BOBKATZHOST) 
  
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  From:  R/C Floats (RachelsChild)   8/1/2003 6:19 pm  
To:  Bob (BOBKATZHOST)    (264 of 596)  
 
  628.264 in reply to 628.263  
 
Yup back to the beginning. And how do you know that J. Smith was not decieved? 

R/C
 
  
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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    8/1/2003 6:29 pm  
To:  Bob (BOBKATZHOST)    (265 of 596)  
 
  628.265 in reply to 628.264  
 
Wow all those titles, impressive to man but worthless to God.

 

My, only title is that Im a Sinner saved by the Glorious Cross and Resurrection of Jesus.

 

I was once blind but now I see.

 

David



David A. Brown
Basic Christian: Forum
www.BasicChristian.org

 
  
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  From:  Bob (BOBKATZHOST)    8/1/2003 6:29 pm  
To:  R/C Floats (RachelsChild)   (266 of 596)  
 
  628.266 in reply to 628.264  
 
Because I have received verification from God in an answer to sincere Prayer that he was not. 
Bob 

  




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Edited 8/1/2003 9:32:21 PM ET by Bob (BOBKATZHOST) 
  
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  From:  Bob (BOBKATZHOST)    8/1/2003 6:33 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (267 of 596)  
 
  628.267 in reply to 628.265  
 
How do you know those titles are Worthless to God?

I do not believe that the Priesthood of God is worthless to Him.

Bob 

  




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Edited 8/1/2003 9:34:11 PM ET by Bob (BOBKATZHOST) 
  
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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    8/1/2003 6:44 pm  
To:  Bob (BOBKATZHOST)    (268 of 596)  
 
  628.268 in reply to 628.267  
 
Well what exactly is it that you do besides baptize for dead people and that is already proven to be worthless.

 

Lets see ..

 

Secret - clothing, underwear, hat and fig leaf apron  worthless, 

Secret  handshakes  worthless

Secret  names and code words  worthless

Communion  of water and leavened bread  worthless

 

Sums up to be a worthless ministry!

 

David

 



David A. Brown
Basic Christian: Forum
www.BasicChristian.org




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Edited 8/1/2003 9:45:47 PM ET by David (DAVIDABROWN) 
  
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  From:  Bob (BOBKATZHOST)    8/1/2003 6:47 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (269 of 596)  
 
  628.269 in reply to 628.268  
 
How doyou know about those things if they are Secret? What evidence can you produce to prove them Worthless?

Why do you consider the Sacrament worthless considering that Jesus instituted that ordanience at the Last Supper?

Bob 

  




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Edited 8/1/2003 9:48:01 PM ET by Bob (BOBKATZHOST) 
  
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  From:  R/C Floats (RachelsChild)   8/1/2003 6:47 pm  
To:  Bob (BOBKATZHOST)    (270 of 596)  
 
  628.270 in reply to 628.266  
 
Bob, 
Okay, now I'm confused. Doesn't LDS teach many gods? (don't you aspire to be a god someday?) If there is more then one god, which one do you pray to? How do you know which god is anwering you? Could it be the God of the Bible you pray to or is He an unreliable god? 

R/C
 
  
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  From:  Bob (BOBKATZHOST)    8/1/2003 6:56 pm  
To:  R/C Floats (RachelsChild)   (271 of 596)  
 
  628.271 in reply to 628.270  
 
Let me see if I can unconfuse you.

The Church of Jesus Christ does not teach many Gods in one Sense. It can be confusing. You are being told speculation rather than doctrine.

We recognize the existance of many Gods. For this Earth there are Three that we are concerned with. All the others we know nothing about and are unconcerned with. 

These three are called the Father, Son and Holy Ghost. They work together with one purpose. They form the Godhead. We worship the Father in the name of the Son. 

The Father, Son and Holy Ghost are extremely reliable. 

The concept that we can one day become Gods is speculation not doctrine. 

Does this make more sense?

Bob 

 

 
  
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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    8/1/2003 7:09 pm  
To:  Bob (BOBKATZHOST)    (272 of 596)  
 
  628.272 in reply to 628.271  
 
*You shouldnt even bother posting your Mormon Propaganda. You try so hard to make it sound Christian like, then when you do finally deceive some poor soul you really give them the drubbing, like telling them they are actually a Jewish Tribal member and an Ancient American Indian Tribal Member and a Priest and on and on .. Nobodys buying it!!!

 

Jesus instituted Communion to be in His body and by His blood.

 

Christians eat the body and drink the blood of Jesus, we become identifiable with Jesus.

 

Mormons eat Leavened Bread and drink warm water, as the Devil mocks you with prison food being that Mormons are in a spiritual prison of bondage to the lies deceit and manipulation of Satan.

 

So it does look like there is a difference between the two practices. Although maybe your communion isnt worthless if it makes you realize that it is prison food, the food of condemned people and causes in you to hunger and to thirst for life and freedom in the true Communion of Jesus.

 

David

 

 



David A. Brown
Basic Christian: Forum
www.BasicChristian.org

 
  
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  From:  R/C Floats (RachelsChild)   8/1/2003 7:29 pm  
To:  Bob (BOBKATZHOST)    (273 of 596)  
 
  628.273 in reply to 628.271  
 
No, it doesn't clarify who it is exactly you pray to. If there are three gods you are primarily concerned with...how do you know which one you're speaking with when you pray? 

Is it not a risky thing believe in gods you do not know anything about? How would you know you are or aren't being spoken to by them, if you know nothing of them? Does LDS not believe in seducing spirits or in fallen angels that can disguise themselves as light? 

To we Christains it is blasphemous to suggest God is anything as lowly as: "extremely reliable"....God is PERFECT in every way.....! 

R/C
 
  
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  From:  Bob (BOBKATZHOST)    8/1/2003 7:48 pm  
To:  R/C Floats (RachelsChild)   (274 of 596)  
 
  628.274 in reply to 628.273  
 
We pray to the Father in the name of the Son. 

We learn of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost in the Bible, Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants, and the Pearl of Great Price. We also learn of them in the Temple. Further we are taught by them through answer to sincere prayer.

Yes the Father is Perfect. We know this because Jesus told us so (Be ye therefore Perfect.....)

Bob 

  




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Edited 8/1/2003 11:33:10 PM ET by Bob (BOBKATZHOST) 
  
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  From:  savedme2   8/1/2003 10:21 pm  
To:  boodada   (275 of 596)  
 
  628.275 in reply to 628.162  
 
yup 
  
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  From:  PBarnes14   8/2/2003 11:51 pm  
To:  R/C Floats (RachelsChild)   (276 of 596)  
 
  628.276 in reply to 628.273  
 
Now lets be fair. The Mormons do in fact preach to pray to the Father in the name of Jesus Christ. I have many Mormon friends and I have a great respect for them despite our differences. 
From my experience in discussing this topic with LDS, Mormons believe that God is "one" purely in a spiritual sense. However, we believe that God is one in substance and essence as well. 

Therefore, they can technically get away with saying that they only believe in one God. That is ... one "spiritual" God. 

Interestingly enough, they believe that MORE THAN ONE BODY may possess the spiritual attributes of Godhood. THIS is actually where we disagree with the LDS. They believe that God the Father has a body and is not just spirit. The Bible teaches that only one man with a body is actually God. That man is Jesus Christ. 

Also, we can never be "one" with God in the same sense that Jesus is "one" with the Father. In other words, man cannot become divine like God is. This is simply unbiblical. God bless. 

Paul Barnes 

 
  
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  From:  R/C Floats (RachelsChild)   8/3/2003 5:19 am  
To:  PBarnes14   (277 of 596)  
 
  628.277 in reply to 628.276  
 
Paul, 

Lets be fair? I don't think it's unfair to ask an LDS what god they pray to. Unfortunatly, most unsuspecting people do not realise LDS believes in many gods . LDS doctrine cloaks it's true beliefs behind Christian language....and that is more then unfair, it is deceitful and deceptive. That said, I also know a few Mormons myself and they do emmulate some very positive and conservative cultural standards that are worthy of respect. 

Yes, I do understand LDS teaches God the Father (seperate from Jesus) has a physical body of his own...thus the false LDS belief of the nature of Mary's conception of Jesus. 

Totally agree we can NEVER become divine. And Jesus is the only man who became, God in the flesh. 

I do appreciate your tender heart in wanting to reach LDS with the Gospel of love, rather then a spirit of condemnation. 

R/C 

 
  
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  From:  lifelightway   8/3/2003 1:48 pm  
To:  PBarnes14   (278 of 596)  
 
  628.278 in reply to 628.276  
 
Paul: Therefore, they can technically get away with saying that they only believe in one God. That is ... one "spiritual" God. 
Wow! I am really impressed. You actually listen to what the LDS have to say. You don't just plug your ears and ignore us. Good for you. 

Paul: Interestingly enough, they believe that MORE THAN ONE BODY may possess the spiritual attributes of Godhood. THIS is actually where we disagree with the LDS. They believe that God the Father has a body and is not just spirit. The Bible teaches that only one man with a body is actually God. That man is Jesus Christ. 

Well, you at least believe that THREE "personages" possess the spiritual attributes of Godhood. Plus, what makes you think God the Father doesn't have a body as well as spirit? Stephen saw God the Father in a vision where Jesus was standing at His right hand. Moses spoke to the Lord face to face "as a Man speaketh unto his friend." If you want to know what it is like to talk to God, the Bible compares it to speaking to your friend. Consider this passage: 

Ezek. 1: 26 "And above the firmament that was over their heads was the likeness of a throne, as the appearance of a sapphire stone: and upon the likeness of the throne was the likeness as the appearance of a man above upon it." 

Notice that it didn't say God was a man, but had the "likeness" and "appearance of a man". ...and also the following that says the Father has a "person." 

"Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;" [Heb. 1: 3] 

The express image of God the Father's person of course. Because God has a person to be the express image of! Look where else this wording is used ...And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, after his image; and called his name Seth: Gen. 5: 3 

Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: Ex. 20: 4 

Paul: Also, we can never be "one" with God in the same sense that Jesus is "one" with the Father. In other words, man cannot become divine like God is. This is simply unbiblical. God bless. 

Wrong. It is absolutely Biblical. 

-Stephen 

 
  
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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    8/3/2003 4:38 pm  
To:  lifelightway   (279 of 596)  
 
  628.279 in reply to 628.278  
 
I keep finding myself wondering that since Mormons think that Jesus is their brother and that they are just like He is and He is just like Mormons than  why is it that Mormons cant walk on water or calm the storms or multiply food or heal the sick or cast out demons or transfigure before the eyes of others.

 

Mormons put a lot of effort into denying who Jesus is and I for one disagree with Paul and I continue to say that Mormons have Nothing in common with Christianity.

 

I wonder why Paul didnt mention the Mormon Communion of  warm Water and Bread, or the baptism of the dead or of the Polygamy or of the contrived Priesthood and of the false History of Mormonism and of the False Prophecies of Mormonism. Is Salt Lake City the New Jerusalem? And on and on .. So much Error in Mormonism So much different from Christianity. 

 

David



David A. Brown
Basic Christian: Forum
www.BasicChristian.org

 
  
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   From:  PBarnes14   8/3/2003 5:44 pm  
To:  lifelightway   (280 of 596)  
 
  628.280 in reply to 628.278  
 
The Mormon Doctrine of exaltation is extra-Biblical and may only be supported by LDS scripture. 
Paul Barnes
 
  
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From:  lifelightway   8/3/2003 6:05 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (281 of 596)  
 
  628.281 in reply to 628.279  
 
<<<"...since Mormons think that Jesus is their brother and that they are just like He is and He is just like Mormons than why is it that Mormons cant walk on water or calm the storms or multiply food or heal the sick or cast out demons or transfigure before the eyes of others.">>> 
The teaching is that we CAN be like Him. Not that we ARE like him. Only the atoning sacrifice of Christ can make this possible. When it comes to miracles, God did in fact give the disciples the power to heal, interpret tongues, etc. 

<<<"Mormons put a lot of effort into denying who Jesus is...">>> 

You sure have a knack for making comments while not supporting them. 

<<<"I wonder why Paul didnt mention the Mormon Communion of warm Water and Bread, or the baptism of the dead or of the Polygamy or of the contrived Priesthood and of the false History of Mormonism and of the False Prophecies of Mormonism. Is Salt Lake City the New Jerusalem? And on and on .. So much Error in Mormonism So much different from Christianity.">>> 

Because scriptures explain how it is the true meaning of communion that matters not Pharisee-like technicalities about whether it is grape-juice or water or wine. Because baptism for the dead is in fact mentioned. Because ancient Patriarchs practiced polygamy in rare situations. Because Mormon History is not falsified. Anti-Mormons love using our history to condemn us. No false prophesies and nobody ever said that SLC is the New Jerusalem. And on and on ... 

 
  
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  From:  lifelightway   8/3/2003 6:33 pm  
To:  PBarnes14   (282 of 596)  
 
  628.282 in reply to 628.280  
 
<<<The Mormon Doctrine of exaltation is extra-Biblical and may only be supported by LDS scripture.>>> 
You ignored the content of my last post completely. Please go back and ponder and pray about the scriptures I posted. I hope you will consider the Biblical scripture in this post as well. 

You said that we cannot become one with God in the same way that Jesus is one with the Father. Jesus states otherwise. 

John 17 

Jesus says: "That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me." 

"And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:" 

"I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me." 

"Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world." 

I can not say it better than Christ did. This is not about becoming our own seperate gods. It is about becoming one with God. 

"According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that [pertain] unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue: Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust. " (2 Peter 1:3-4) see also - 2 Pet. 1: 6, 2 Pet. 1: 7, 2 Pet. 3: 11 

The saints have been promised all that the Lord has. The Lord has been given all that the Father has and we are joint-heirs with Christ. 

Rom. 8: 17 heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ. 
Acts 17: 29 we are the offspring of God. 
Ps. 16: 11 in thy presence is fulness of joy. 
Gen. 3: 22 (Moses 4: 28) man is become as one of us. 
Matt. 25: 34 inherit the kingdom prepared for you. 
2 Cor. 3: 18 changed into the same image from glory to glory. 
Philip. 2: 9 God also hath highly exalted him. 
Eph. 4: 13 Till we all come to a unity of the faith unto a perfect man. 
Ps. 82: 6 ye are gods, and all of you are children of the most High. 
2 Tim. 4: 8 laid up for me a crown of righteousness. 
James 1: 12 shall receive the crown of life. 
1 Pet. 5: 4 receive a crown of glory that fadeth not away. 
Rev. 3: 21 grant to sit with me in my throne. 
Rev. 21: 7 He that overcometh shall inherit all. 

So how un-Biblical or extra-Biblical is the doctrine of exaltation really? 







--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Edited 8/3/2003 9:48:59 PM ET by LIFELIGHTWAY 
  
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  From:  clrose1   8/4/2003 11:35 am  
To:  R/C Floats (RachelsChild)   (283 of 596)  
 
  628.283 in reply to 628.250  
 
I know that a rabbi agreed that my wifes cousin was Jewish, (even though she was also a Christian), by birth, yet my wife (actually now my ex-wife) was not since her mother wasn't the one that was Jewish. 
  
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  From:  clrose1   8/4/2003 11:41 am  
To:  R/C Floats (RachelsChild)   (284 of 596)  
 
  628.284 in reply to 628.273  
 
LDS don't believe in Gods we know nothing about. The only God that we have to deal with is God the father through His Son Jesus Christ. 
  
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  From:  clrose1   8/4/2003 11:44 am  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (285 of 596)  
 
  628.285 in reply to 628.279  
 
It's all in who Jesus was. His mother of course was the virgin Mary. His Father was God the Father, which is why He could choose to live forever with His mortal body, or to lie it down for us to take it up again. He was different than the rest of us. 
I believe that if we had enough faith, we could do all the things that Jesus did. It is all in the faith we have, and then there would probably have to be a reason to be able to do these things.
 
  
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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    8/4/2003 12:16 pm  
To:  clrose1   (286 of 596)  
 
  628.286 in reply to 628.285  
 
Duh,

 

If Jesus chose to continue to live in His body and not to die there would be no remedy for our sins!

 

God came to die so that we can live! Its that simple!

 

Duh, Duh,

Faith is not a force it is a trust! You can have all the faith there is but unless God does it i.e. a miracle it wont happen.

 

I like the way you Mormons try to use big words and try to confuse people while acting like you know what your talking about, keep it up it's very funny and entertaining.

 

David



David A. Brown
Basic Christian: Forum
www.BasicChristian.org

 
  
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  From:  clrose1   8/4/2003 12:24 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (287 of 596)  
 
  628.287 in reply to 628.286  
 
I used no big words in what I wrote. Faith is both a force and a trust. Faith is belief in things not seen, but that we choose to believe in. It is through that faith that we all can live with God. In that sense I would say that faith is a major force in our lives. 
BTW, I like the way you try to make spins on the LDS church that are not close to the truth.
 
  
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  From:  R/C Floats (RachelsChild)   8/4/2003 12:44 pm  
To:  clrose1   (288 of 596)  
 
  628.288 in reply to 628.283  
 
Hi: 

Well, God understands genetic coding and blood lines very well.(since He is the creator of all) The plain fact was (until DNA verification) a bloodline could only be proved via the mother. It was impossible until, our lifetime, to prove who the father really was. that is why Jewish bloodline is traced thru the female. The male line was carried the Title. This distinction perfectly verifies Jesus Jewish geneology (Kingly Jewish blood line thru Mary she being descended from David"s son Nathan) and the right to Title of Kingship thru Mary marrying Joseph. ( Jesus' step father who descended from King David thru Solomon.) 

Anyway, the Jewish practice of determinging authentic descent was very accurate (proving DNA long before we did)....BUT that is because they followed the commandments of God. 

R/C
 
  
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  From:  clrose1   8/4/2003 12:48 pm  
To:  R/C Floats (RachelsChild)   (289 of 596)  
 
  628.289 in reply to 628.288  
 
They didn't prove DNA... Like you said, the mother could always be proven as to who she was. Not so, with the Father. It would even be more difficult when the Father was God himself. 
  
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  From:  boodada   8/4/2003 12:54 pm  
To:  lifelightway   (290 of 596)  
 
  628.290 in reply to 628.281  
 
Because baptism for the dead is in fact mentioned. 
Boodada says: 
Why isn't in the Book of Mormon, since it is supposed to contain 
the full gospel (according to JS)?
 
  
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  From:  R/C Floats (RachelsChild)   8/4/2003 12:55 pm  
To:  clrose1   (291 of 596)  
 
  628.291 in reply to 628.285  
 
God the Father has no need to inhabit a body....far less a mortal one. And He certainly did not have physical sex with Mary in conceiving Jesus. do you really believe that a Holy God would come down to have sex with a 14 year old young, vigin,woman? and then to top it off, leave her and return to Heaven. It's as ludicrous ( and un God like )as it is perverted! 

R/C
 
  
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  From:  R/C Floats (RachelsChild)   8/4/2003 1:10 pm  
To:  clrose1   (292 of 596)  
 
  628.292 in reply to 628.289  
 
In a practical sense it certainly did track a pure blood line. If the mother was Jewish, the child was Jewish. 
Well, if God the Father had a REAL body, it would carry DNA. But that is a lie, God does not have a body. Mary was overshadowed by the Holy Spirt ( a most gentle way of conception). The Bible clearly states Mary remained a VIRGIN til after Jesus' birth. BTW, by God's Law a woman could never have more then one husband. God was NEVER A husband to Mary, it would violate His own Law. 

r/C 
 
  
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  From:  clrose1   8/4/2003 1:10 pm  
To:  R/C Floats (RachelsChild)   (293 of 596)  
 
  628.293 in reply to 628.291  
 
The LDS do not claim that God had physical sex with Mary. This is one of the fallacies that a lot anti-mormons have dreamed up. You will get no argument on sexual intercourse with Mary. Did you not notice that I referred to Mary as a virgin? She was still a virgin when our Savior was born of her. 
  
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  From:  clrose1   8/4/2003 1:12 pm  
To:  R/C Floats (RachelsChild)   (294 of 596)  
 
  628.294 in reply to 628.292  
 
I agree that God was not a husband of Mary, and I agree that the Holy Spirit overshadowed Mary so that she could concieve. LDS do not know anything more than this on how Mary became preganant with the Son of God.  
  
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Message 295 of 596 was Deleted    



  From:  Bob (BOBKATZHOST)    8/4/2003 1:23 pm  
To:  R/C Floats (RachelsChild)   (296 of 596)  
 
  628.296 in reply to 628.291  
 
How do you know that God does not need a body?

I know of nothing in LDS Doctrine that says that God had Physical sex with Mary. As far as I know the actual mechnism for impregnating Mary has not been revealed. 

How do you know that Mary was 14 at that time?

Bob 
 
  
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  From:  R/C Floats (RachelsChild)   8/4/2003 1:30 pm  
To:  PBarnes14 unread  (297 of 596)  
 
  628.297 in reply to 628.295  
 
Paul, 

If this is a false rumor why do ex Mormon's continuously procalim this? 
I wholeheartedly agree that sustaining falsehoods is wrong. But as yet no one has proved it a falsehood Christians are perpectuating. 

R/C
 
  
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  From:  lifelightway   8/4/2003 1:37 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (298 of 596)  
 
  628.298 in reply to 628.286  
 
David. Why did you delete the following information from the other thread? You don't like the Bible when it doesn't support your own beliefs do you? This is all I stated on the Denominationalist thread: 
Interpretation is why we disagree on many doctrines. That is why there are so many denominations divisions. It was the same in ancient times. The Sadducees and the Parisees, for example, didn't know the interpretations (the true meanings) of the scriptures. 

No prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. [2 Pet. 1: 20] 

Ephesians chapter 4 

11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; 
12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: 
13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: 
14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; 

Where are the apostles? Where are the prophets? Just like from the beginning ... "Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he revealeth his secrets unto his servants the prophets." [Amos 3:7] 

Scriptures don't state that revelations will end. In fact, the Church is built upon the rock of revelation through the Holy Spirit. That is how Peter knew that Jesus is the Christ. The Father revealed it to him by the Spirit. [Matt. 16: 17-18] This is how we may know the truth of all things. [John 16: 13] 

The Lord speaks in a still small voice. [1 Kgs. 19: 12] 

If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God. [James 1: 5] 

Where there is no vision, the people perish. [Prov. 29: 18] 

Would God that all the Lords people were prophets. [Num. 11: 29] 

Your sons and daughters shall prophesy. [Joel 2: 28] (Acts 2: 17-18) 

Then of course, there is the question of authority... Any who preach or administer for God must be called of God by those in authority. No man takes this honor unto himself, but he that is called of God. [Heb. 5: 4] I ordained thee a prophet. [Jer. 1: 5] 

Jesus gave his disciples power and authority. [Luke 9: 1-2] [John 15: 16]. Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ORDAINED you. [John 15: 16] 

The gift of the Holy Ghost is given by the laying on of hands from one who has the proper authority. [Acts 8: 12-25] Even in the Old Testament, he laid his hands upon him and gave him a charge. [Num. 27: 23] This brings us to the priesthood. [Ps. 110: 4] 

And he shall have the covenant of an EVERLASTING priesthood. [Num. 25: 13] 

Peter received the keys of the kingdom. [Matt. 16: 19] Paul was called to be an Apostle. [Rom. 1: 1] No man takes this honor unto himself, but he that is called of God. [Heb. 5: 4] Jesus was called of God after the order of Melchizedek. [Heb. 5: 10] 

Is God a denominationalist? No. The Lord is at the head, the chief cornerstone. The church fell during the apostasy, but the cornerstone has never crumpled. That is why we needed the restoration. 

He has a group of seventy to help the twelve apostles govern the affairs of the church.[Ex. 24: 9-11] When Judas was gone, they had to replace him by putting someone else in his office. He has elders. [James 5: 14-15] Also, the office of deacon. [1 Tim. 3: 10]. I could go on and on, but the point is this: Only one church on the earth has the priesthood keys, the organization given by Christ, and the authority to preach the gospel. 

 
  
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  From:  R/C Floats (RachelsChild)   8/4/2003 1:38 pm  
To:  Bob (BOBKATZHOST)    (299 of 596)  
 
  628.299 in reply to 628.296  
 
Hi Bob, 

He doesn't have a body because scripture teaches that.( and when i have the time I'll cite references, I have supper to get ready) 

Scripture does not give Mary's exact age, except for noting she was a young virgin. However, thru Jewish tradition we know that a young woman officially became a woman after her 13th year. It was not uncommon back then for a young woman to marry at 14-16 years of age. 

R/C
 
  
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   From:  lifelightway   8/4/2003 1:50 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (300 of 596)  
 
  628.300 in reply to 628.286  
 
I have more to add: 
Christ never claimed to be the only or last priest. When men were given the "everlasting priesthood" did God take it away from them negating the meaning of everlasting? How about everlasting life? In the scriptures I gave you, Jesus "ordained" apostles and gave them authority. It says that Christ is "an High Priest," not the only and last priest. Does Abraham still hold his priesthood today? The book of Hebrews in the New Testament says yes. 

Notice that the positions such as "deacon" are called an "office" in the original church Christ established. Just something to think about. (By the way, we do have pastors, patriarchs, evangelists, and bishops of course. I forgot to post the scriptures that show the role Bishops and Patriarchs play in the church and there is a lot of good stuff there if you really want me to show you, just ask.) 

God took the higher priesthood away from Israel leaving only this lower priesthood (Aaronic Priesthood), which does not bring perfection. Christ's sacrifice does with the covenants we make to him in baptism and covenants made in the Higher law. When Christ returned he restored the Higher Melchisidec priesthood and then it later fell away again as prophesied when the Apostles were killed off faster thant the church could replace them. Apostasy. The church lost the priesthood keys under the persecutions of Nero and others. A similar attempt was made by satan to kill off the LDS in the extermination order. 

Notice in Hebrews 6:2 it calls the "laying on of hands" a "doctrine". This is how people are conferred the Holy Spirit and ordained to callings and offices in the church of Christ. In Heb. 6:16-17 oaths/covenants are discussed briefly. Also verse 20 ... "Whither the forerunner is for us entered, even Jesus, made an high priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec." Interesting how Jesus is "an High Priest" and "forerunner" in the priesthood. That implies that others in the priesthood follow. 

Heb. 7:2 refers to the law of tithing which is well known to LDS going on to 7:3 which says that "like the Son of God [Abraham's] priesthood abides for ever." So, like I said ... priesthood holders still exist. 

We fully agree that Christ is our Lord and King. He is our High Priest forever and the "Chief Cornerstone" in the church. Yet Christ gave authority and ordained men to build up the kingdom. Nobody can take this honor unto themselves because they are "ordained" such by those in authority. Like elders - Acts 14: 23 . Notice that those who belong to the church are "members" 1 Cor. 12: 12-28; 

Heb. 9 talks about living the "Higher" law. (Ancient people were given the Higher law before but they couldn't keep it.) It was taken away along with its blessings. Then Christ restored it. [An example of the change would be replacing sacrifices with the Lord's supper.] Christ is the mediator of the Higher law, which does in fact bring along with it - the Melchisidec priesthood over the Aaronic. 

Some believe that "faith alone" saves. Even the demoniac Legion believed that Jesus was the Christ and Son of God in Mark 5. True faith requires more than just belief. True faith is NEVER alone. 

-- 

P.S. [For the doctrine of exaltation.] Translated directly from Aramaic. 

Therefore become perfect, just as your Father in Heaven is perfect. - Jesus 

You claim that Jesus is commanding us to do something that is completely impossible to do. Commanding us to become something that we never can become. I have no reason to believe that Christ would do this. Matt. 6:48 

 
  
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From:  lifelightway   8/4/2003 1:58 pm  
To:  boodada   (301 of 596)  
 
  628.301 in reply to 628.290  
 
<<<Why isn't in the Book of Mormon, since it is supposed to contain 
the full gospel (according to JS)?>>> 
Because the fulness of the gospel is not "all truth". No book can contain "all truth" and the Bible even states this. The fulness of gospel is quite simple. 

It is faith unto repentance, baptism by immersion for the remission of sins, the gift of the Holy Spirit by the laying on of hands, and allowing the atonement change us for the rest of our lives. This is how we find salvation through the gospel. 

(These ordinances are given by those with authority from Christ to do so. See my last two posts for Biblical references.) 

 
  
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  From:  clrose1   8/4/2003 2:03 pm  
To:  R/C Floats (RachelsChild)   (302 of 596)  
 
  628.302 in reply to 628.297  
 
Two possible reasons for ex-mormons to claim this. 
1. They never looked at what Mormon doctrine is truthfully. 

or... 

2. They are angry and are trying to get at the LDS church. 

Either way, it is a lie.
 
  
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  From:  lifelightway   8/4/2003 2:04 pm  
To:  R/C Floats (RachelsChild)   (303 of 596)  
 
  628.303 in reply to 628.291  
 
<<<God the Father has no need to inhabit a body....far less a mortal one.>>> 
If that is the case, why does God the Father need the Holy Spirit? 

I'll tell you why. The Holy Spirit can dwell within us, God the Father cannot. If the Father could, then the Holy Spirit would have no functional purpose. 

Jesus dwelt in a body, and is "God". You must have ignored the Biblical scriptures I just posted without even considering what those scriptures say. I suggest you look at what the Bible actually says instead of trusting in the creeds.
 
  
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  From:  boodada   8/4/2003 2:10 pm  
To:  lifelightway   (304 of 596)  
 
  628.304 in reply to 628.301  
 
<<<Why isn't in the Book of Mormon, since it is supposed to contain 
the full gospel (according to JS)?>>> 
You said: 
Because the fulness of the gospel is not "all truth". No book can contain "all truth" and the Bible even states this. The fulness of gospel is quite simple. 

Boodada says: 
Huh? You're not making any sense 

The fullness of the gospel should contain all that is necessary 
to know about the gospel 

Your BOM omits baptism from the dead, which should be part of the 
gospel (according to LDS theology) 

Therefore, the BOM does not contain the fullness and the D&C is errant 

You said: 
It is faith unto repentance, baptism by immersion for the remission of sins, the gift of the Holy Spirit by the laying on of hands, and allowing the atonement change us for the rest of our lives. This is how we find salvation through the gospel. 

Boodada says: 
What if we're dead? 

 
  
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  From:  lifelightway   8/4/2003 2:11 pm  
To:  clrose1   (305 of 596)  
 
  628.305 in reply to 628.302  
 

<<<Two possible reasons for ex-mormons to claim this.>>> 
I would say three. 

Some teachers may have taught falsehoods that contradict church doctrine. We make no claim on having perfect members who make no mistakes. 

Even so, no doctrine can contradict scripture and that is that. 

 
  
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  From:  boodada   8/4/2003 2:11 pm  
To:  lifelightway   (306 of 596)  
 
  628.306 in reply to 628.301  
 
In Alma 34:34-35 we find: 
"Ye cannot say, when ye are brought to that awful crisis (death), that I will repent, that I will return to my God. Nay, ye cannot say this; for that same spirit which doth possess your bodies at the time that ye go out of this life, that same spirit will have power to possess your body in that eternal world. For behold, if ye have procrastinated the day of your repentance even until death, behold, ye have become subjected to the spirit of the devil, and he doth seal you his; therefore, the Spirit of the Lord hath withdrawn from you, and hath no place in you, and the devil hath all power over you; and this is the final state of the wicked." 

Why do you baptize for the dead if this passage offers on "advancement" or "salvation" for those who did not receive of it in this life??? 

 
  
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  From:  Bob (BOBKATZHOST)    8/4/2003 2:19 pm  
To:  R/C Floats (RachelsChild)   (307 of 596)  
 
  628.307 in reply to 628.299  
 
I am well familiar with the verse you plan to cite. I suspect you are referring to:

24 aGod is a bSpirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in ctruth.

(New Testament | John 4:24)

Most stop after "God is spirit" and forget the rest of the verse. If we are going to worship God in Spirit and we are Spirit wrapped in a body, then God can be a Spirit wrapped in a body also.

I do not know Mary's age and was not suggesting that 14 was wrong. It is just one of those things that was not revealed. I don't think it matters too much.

Bob 

  




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Edited 8/4/2003 5:24:35 PM ET by Bob (BOBKATZHOST) 
  
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  From:  lifelightway   8/4/2003 2:21 pm  
To:  boodada   (308 of 596)  
 
  628.308 in reply to 628.304  
 
Boodada says: 
What if we're dead? 
What did I tell you: Faith unto repentance, baptism by immersion for the remmission of sins, the gift of the Holy Spirit, and allowing the atonement to work in our lives. 

The Doctrine and Covenants section 138 explains it all in much more detail and absolutely agrees with the Bible and BoM in all respects. 

xxx 

<<<The fullness of the gospel should contain all that is necessary 
to know about the gospel>>> 

Maybe according to your definition. But not according to the definition that Joseph Smith was using. He was just a man and a prophet who uses words to convey meaning just like anybody else. Go back to the scriptures I have been posting and try to come up with a real argument.



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Edited 8/5/2003 12:56:23 AM ET by David (DAVIDABROWN) 
  
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  From:  lifelightway   8/4/2003 2:27 pm  
To:  boodada   (309 of 596)  
 
  628.309 in reply to 628.306  
 
Alma 34:34-35 
"Ye cannot say, when ye are brought to that awful crisis (death), that I will repent, that I will return to my God. Nay, ye cannot say this; for that same spirit which doth possess your bodies at the time that ye go out of this life, that same spirit will have power to possess your body in that eternal world. For behold, if ye have procrastinated the day of your repentance even until death, behold, ye have become subjected to the spirit of the devil, and he doth seal you his; therefore, the Spirit of the Lord hath withdrawn from you, and hath no place in you, and the devil hath all power over you; and this is the final state of the wicked." 
<<<BOODADA: Why do you baptize for the dead if this passage offers on "advancement" or "salvation" for those who did not receive of it in this life???>>> 

Because this passage is referring to those who were given the gospel and deep down knew that it was true. Yet, they hardened their hearts and rejected it. They heard it here and rejected the truth. 

What about those who never had the opportunity to hear the gospel? Or only heard a gross misrepresentation of the gospel? Do you blame the Aztecs for rejecting Christianity when "Christians" were raping and pillaging or when the Indians were given disease ridden blankets? 

 
  
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  From:  boodada   8/4/2003 2:29 pm  
To:  lifelightway   (310 of 596)  
 
  628.310 in reply to 628.308  
 
You said: 
The Doctrine and Covenants section 138 explains it all in much more detail and absolutely agrees with the Bible and BoM in all respects. 
Boodada says: 
Well, the bible does not teach baptism of the dead 

It's fascinating that Mormonism is the only Christian sect, pseudo-sect or whatever you wish to call it that thinks such a thing is 
biblical 

I like the fact that Mormonism is so drastically different from 
biblical Christianity -- makes it much easier to choose one or the other
 
  
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  From:  boodada   8/4/2003 2:33 pm  
To:  lifelightway   (311 of 596)  
 
  628.311 in reply to 628.309  
 
You said: 
Because this passage is referring to those who were given the gospel and deep down knew that it was true. Yet, they hardened their hearts and rejected it. They heard it here and rejected the truth. 
Boodada says: 
Does it specifically say that? 

You said: 
What about those who never had the opportunity to hear the gospel? Or only heard a gross misrepresentation of the gospel? Do you blame the Aztecs for rejecting Christianity when "Christians" were raping and pillaging or when the Indians were given disease ridden blankets? 

Boodada says: 
God in His mercy can work this out 

What good is baptizing for a dead person going to do? 

Not a thing 

Or do you presume you know better than God and have to 
help him out when He has already judged these souls?
 
  
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  From:  clrose1   8/4/2003 2:37 pm  
To:  boodada   (312 of 596)  
 
  628.312 in reply to 628.304  
 
The LDS are taught that the fullness of the gospel is just as Lifelightway said. You are confusing fullness of the gospel to mean that it has to have every doctrine. This is not according to LDS theology on fullness of the gospel. 
  
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  From:  clrose1   8/4/2003 2:39 pm  
To:  boodada   (313 of 596)  
 
  628.313 in reply to 628.306  
 
We baptize for the dead because the Lord has asked us too. There are a lot of people who would've accepted had they been given their proper chance. The scripture you sited speaks truthfully. It is not up to us to judge who would've repented of their sins and who would not of done that. 
  
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  From:  lifelightway   8/4/2003 3:40 pm  
To:  boodada   (314 of 596)  
 
  628.314 in reply to 628.311  
 
Do you think that Paul would use heresy as a proof of the resurrection of our Lord Jesus Christ? Was Paul not inspired of God when this was written about baptism for the dead in 1 Cor. 15? 
(That chapter also confirms the different glories in the resurrection which are described in D&C 76. 
<<<What good is baptizing for a dead person going to do?>>> 

Christ taught that none can enter the kingdom of God without Baptism. Do you think He was just kidding? They must recieve the Holy Spirit as well. 

<<<Or do you presume you know better than God and have to help him out when He has already judged these souls?>>> 

God has asked us to do for those what they cannot do for themselves. Not only is this confirmed by Peter, but is also a fulfillment of the Old Testament prophesies. 

"And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse." [Mal 4:6] 

The earth would be utterly wasted if all the souls who never had the chance to be baptized were lost to us. 

 
  
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  From:  R/C Floats (RachelsChild)   8/4/2003 3:49 pm  
To:  lifelightway   (315 of 596)  
 
  628.315 in reply to 628.303  
 
Nonsense... God is the Father, the Holy Spirt and Jesus...three manifestations of His being. God doesn't "need" the Holy Spirit, He IS the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit was given to born again believers to help us. 

I read the scriptures you posted, they are all mixed up and mixed in and out of context with eachother. 

What creeds? I do not put my faith into creeds. 

R/C 
 
  
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  From:  lifelightway   8/4/2003 3:53 pm  
To:  boodada   (316 of 596)  
 
  628.316 in reply to 628.310  
 
<<<It's fascinating that Mormonism is the only Christian sect, pseudo-sect or whatever you wish to call it that thinks such a thing is 
biblical.>>> 
Appeal to the majority. Would you have called for the death of Jesus like the rest of the crowd? 

<<<I like the fact that Mormonism is so drastically different from 
biblical Christianity -- makes it much easier to choose one or the other>>> 

I wouldn't call your version of Christianity "biblical" at all. We don't ignore some scriptures to make up for the missing holes. I suggest you look over the last ten posts or so and see how much more Biblical backing we really have. (if your hosts haven't deleted them already) 

I normally do not go to other people challenging their religion, and this is not my purpose. There were many lies being spread about LDS that were not being defended. 

You need to look on both sides of the issues, before you make your decision about this faith. That is what I did. You have only looked at the bias that supports yourself. I can pretty much guarantee that I have read more anti-Mormon literature than you have. However, I investigated both sides to find out what is crap and what is not. 

Most importantly, I went straight to the source for truth. Do not trust in the flesh. Ask God for yourself. Only He can give you the answers that you may know it in your heart. 


 
  
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  From:  lifelightway   8/4/2003 4:01 pm  
To:  R/C Floats (RachelsChild)   (317 of 596)  
 
  628.317 in reply to 628.315  
 

<<<Nonsense... God is the Father, the Holy Spirt and Jesus...three manifestations of His being.>>> 
This belief is built on creeds of men. The Nicene Creed for example. 

<<<God doesn't "need" the Holy Spirit, He IS the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit was given to born again believers to help us.>>> 

You missed the point. What is the difference between our Heavenly Father and the Holy Spirit if they are both just spirit? 

<<<I read the scriptures you posted, they are all mixed up and mixed in and out of context with eachother.>>> 

I actually want you to look at them within context. I have Bibles sitting here right next to the computer. The KJV, NRSV, and translation directly from Aramaic (Peshitta text). When people give me scripture verses, I actually look them up and ponder what is being said. I don't just plug my ears and post "Nuh-uh." 


 
  
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  From:  R/C Floats (RachelsChild)   8/4/2003 4:14 pm  
To:  lifelightway   (318 of 596)  
 
  628.318 in reply to 628.305  
 
Okay this might be a part of the problem. There are many Mormons who do or do not recognize eachother as Mormons. How do you know if one group is less Mormon then the other? What LDS decribes as non Mormon like, RCLDS, the ReOrganized claim,LDS is the renegade group.Then there are the practicing Polygamy Mormons like the 'Latter Day Church of Christ.' then within LDS are believers in the right to polygamy but do not practice it and so on. 

My point is this: Mormonism has within it's practices many diverse opinions and practices. To the non Mormon, the LDS, RCLDS, LDCC are all followers of some sort of J. Smith and Brigham Young. 

I have read credible books (bios) of Mormon women who were taught that Jesus was literally conceived by God in the flesh...and that they could NOT obtain salvation unless sealed to a man. One particular women (and I'll have to find the book) was raised in a large polygamous group in Arizona,,,around Fredonia if I remember correctly. She spoke of the LDS as not representing the fundamental teachings of the church but had sold out doctrine for statehood. I don't believe she was lying. You might believe her Mormon doctrine is in error but what she recounted as her life experience in a Mormon Church/Community was factual. 

r/C 
 
  
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  From:  R/C Floats (RachelsChild)   8/4/2003 4:46 pm  
To:  lifelightway   (319 of 596)  
 
  628.319 in reply to 628.317  
 
My faith is not built on the Creeds. 

The difference between the Holy Spirt and the Heavenly Father is this: the Father Reigns/resigns is heaven. The Holy Spirit dwells/resigns in the born again believer. 
Jesus said in John 14:15-18..." If you love me keep My commandments.And I will pray the Father, and He willgive you another Helper that He may abide with you forever.even the Spirit of truth,whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him or knows Him ; but you know Him, for he dwells with you and will be in you. I will not leave you as orphans, I will come to you." 

Praying to the Heavenly Father is what Jesus instructed us to do. (Matthew 6:9-13)How is it logical to pray to the HEAVENLY Father if He does not reside in heaven? 

Romans 8;26 " Likewise the Spirit also helps in our weaknesses. for we do not know what we should pray for as we ought, but the Spirit Himself makes intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. Now HE who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is because He makes intercession for the saints according to the will of God." 

R/C
 
  
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   From:  Bob (BOBKATZHOST)    8/4/2003 5:00 pm  
To:  R/C Floats (RachelsChild)   (320 of 596)  
 
  628.320 in reply to 628.315  
 
So the Father is the Son, is the Holy Ghost? If that were so then:

Why did Jesus pray to the Father, or is that Pray to Himself?

How did Jesus Ascend to the Father, or so that Ascend to himself?

At His Baptism, The voice of the Father was heard inthe Heavens and the Holy Ghost descended in the form of a dove. Is Jesus a ventriliquest?

I could go on but I think you get the Point.

Why would Jesus say He was the Son of God (The Father) if He is God (the Father)?

Bob 

 

 
  
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From:  boodada   8/4/2003 5:32 pm  
To:  lifelightway   (321 of 596)  
 
  628.321 in reply to 628.314  
 
You said: 
Do you think that Paul would use heresy as a proof of the resurrection of our Lord Jesus Christ? 
Boodada says: 
Paul used pagan poetry in the book of Acts to make a point about 
God, so your argument crumbles 

You said: 
Was Paul not inspired of God when this was written about baptism for the dead in 1 Cor. 15? 

Boodada says: 
Read verse 29 carefully and tell me who Paul is talking about 

If the church is supposed to baptize dead people, why does he not SAY THAT? WHy does he say THEY and not ME, I, US, YOU???????? 

You said: 
That chapter also confirms the different glories in the resurrection which are described in D&C 76. 

Boodada says: 
Not, it doesn't, actually. Nice try, but that's another scriptural blunder from Mr. Smith 

1 Cor 15:40-41 

"There are also heavenly bodies and there are earthly bodies; but the splendor of the heavenly bodies is one kind, and the splendor of the earthly bodies is another. The sun has one kind of splendor, the moon another and the stars another; and star differs from star in splendor." 

Do you know how many stars there are? Bajillions? 

So the argument that this means three kinds of glory is a foolish one 

<<<What good is baptizing for a dead person going to do?>>> 

You said: 
Christ taught that none can enter the kingdom of God without Baptism. 

Boodada says: 
No He did not 

Did the thief on the cross get baptized? 

NO NO and NO 

You said: 
Do you think He was just kidding? They must recieve the Holy Spirit as well. 

Boodada says: 
Really? So that means all the Old Testament Saints have to be 
baptized by proxy too, huh? 

RIGHT? 

<<<Or do you presume you know better than God and have to help him out when He has already judged these souls?>>> 

You said: 
God has asked us to do for those what they cannot do for themselves. Not only is this confirmed by Peter, but is also a fulfillment of the Old Testament prophesies. 

Boodada says: 
WHAT? DO tell... 

You said: 
"And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse." [Mal 4:6] 

Boodada says: 
As usual, Mormons interpreting the bible is akin to a one-legged man running a race. 

What in the world does this verse have to do with Christians, considering it's about JEWS? 

You said: 
The earth would be utterly wasted if all the souls who never had the chance to be baptized were lost to us. 

Boodada says: 
Emotional arguments are nice but full of fluff
 
  
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  From:  boodada   8/4/2003 5:36 pm  
To:  lifelightway   (322 of 596)  
 
  628.322 in reply to 628.316  
 
<<<It's fascinating that Mormonism is the only Christian sect, pseudo-sect or whatever you wish to call it that thinks such a thing is 
biblical.>>> 
You said: 
Appeal to the majority. Would you have called for the death of Jesus like the rest of the crowd? 

Boodada says: 
Different argument, considering you're talking about people who hated Jesus and people who loved Him. 

So, you think I hate Jesus? Is that the company you put me in? 

<<<I like the fact that Mormonism is so drastically different from 
biblical Christianity -- makes it much easier to choose one or the other>>> 

You said: 
I wouldn't call your version of Christianity "biblical" at all. 

Boodada says: 
Of course not...you wouldn't be a Mormon otherwise 

You said: 
We don't ignore some scriptures to make up for the missing holes. 

Boodada says: 
I don't ignore anything. 

You said: 
I suggest you look over the last ten posts or so and see how much more Biblical backing we really have. (if your hosts haven't deleted them already) 

Boodada says: 
I've seen nothing of the sort. As usual. 

But you can keep making your case. You actually seem to have a better grasp of the bible than most other Mormons around here, so 
that's a plus. 

(Why would the hosts delete them?) 

You said: 
I normally do not go to other people challenging their religion, and this is not my purpose. There were many lies being spread about LDS that were not being defended. 

Boodada says: 
Well, lying is not nice and no way to promote one's religion 

If I do it, point it out immediately. 

You said: 
You need to look on both sides of the issues, before you make your decision about this faith. That is what I did. You have only looked at the bias that supports yourself. I can pretty much guarantee that I have read more anti-Mormon literature than you have. However, I investigated both sides to find out what is crap and what is not. 

Boodada says: 
I've read lots from many sides, and continue to do so 

Your faith is based on a charlatan who dug for money and ripped people off before he found a more spiritual use for it. 

You said: 
Most importantly, I went straight to the source for truth. Do not trust in the flesh. Ask God for yourself. Only He can give you the answers that you may know it in your heart. 

Boodada says: 
I did, and He says you guys are wrong and promoting an abominable lie that His church was unable to stay on the earth for more than a hundred years or so and vanished for almost two millenia 

 
  
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  From:  boodada   8/4/2003 5:38 pm  
To:  lifelightway   (323 of 596)  
 
  628.323 in reply to 628.317  
 
<<<Nonsense... God is the Father, the Holy Spirt and Jesus...three manifestations of His being.>>> 
You said: 
This belief is built on creeds of men. The Nicene Creed for example. 

Boodada says: 
Nope. The beliefs pre-existed the creeds 

You write creeds to lay out what you already believe 

And Christians today don't resort to creeds to defend the Trinity -- they go right to scripture 

Care to?
 
  
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  From:  boodada   8/4/2003 5:39 pm  
To:  Bob (BOBKATZHOST)    (324 of 596)  
 
  628.324 in reply to 628.320  
 
Bob 
Your questions are absurd 

You should know by know that orthodox Christianity recognizes 
three persons in one God, so that Jesus is not the Father 

Start educating yourself 
 
  
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  From:  Bob (BOBKATZHOST)    8/4/2003 5:41 pm  
To:  boodada   (325 of 596)  
 
  628.325 in reply to 628.324  
 
It is not my questions that are absurb. I suggest you take a look at what I was responding to. 

It is not I who said that the Father is the Son is the Holy Ghost.

Bob 

 

 
  
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  From:  R/C Floats (RachelsChild)   8/4/2003 6:20 pm  
To:  Bob (BOBKATZHOST)    (326 of 596)  
 
  628.326 in reply to 628.320  
 
There is no contradiction. Jesus manifested the Godhead in human flesh and blood. >>>> " God sent forth His son, born of a woman, under the Law..." <<<<< Galations 4:4&5 As a man, Jesus prayed to his Heavenly Father. 


You: Why would Jesus say He was the Son of God (the Father) if He is God ( the Father)? 

The Bible: 
>>>>> "...Because no man can see Me and live." Ex.34;20b) >>>>>> Exodus 34: 22 " So it will be, while my Glory passes by, that I will put you in a cleft of the rock and will cover you with My hand when I pass by." <<<< 
God's Glory would kill us, our sinful human nature/body simply could not endure the Glory of His Heavenly Presence/Being. 

The Bible: 

>>>>> John 1:1 " in the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God and the Word was God." >>>>> 
>>>>> John 1:14 " and the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth." vs. 18 >>>>> " no one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him."<<<< 

This is the great love of God, not that we will become a god but that God was willing to become a man to save us from our pitiful, sinful human estate. 

r/C 
 
  
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  From:  Bob (BOBKATZHOST)    8/4/2003 6:32 pm  
To:  R/C Floats (RachelsChild)   (327 of 596)  
 
  628.327 in reply to 628.326  
 
Huh? Sorry your post does not anwer my questions. 

BTW your quote of Ex 33:20 brings up a neat contridiction within the Bible. 

Ex 33:20 says that man cannot see God but 33:11

11 And the LORD aspake unto Moses bface to face, as a man cspeaketh unto his dfriend. And he turned again into the camp: but his servant eJoshua, the son of fNun, a young man, departed not out of the tabernacle.

(Old Testament | Exodus 33:11)

Says that Moses spoke with God face to Face as one man speaks with another. How do you speak to one face to face without seeing God?

Bob 

  




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Edited 8/4/2003 9:32:37 PM ET by Bob (BOBKATZHOST) 
  
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  From:  R/C Floats (RachelsChild)   8/4/2003 6:56 pm  
To:  Bob (BOBKATZHOST)    (328 of 596)  
 
  628.328 in reply to 628.327  
 

BoB, 
Do you not know what a Christophany is? ( I'll give you a clue, what a FRIEND we have in Jesus) The Word of God does not contain neat contradictions. Just because you do not understand the Word of God does not make it contain contadictions. 

How have I not answered your question? 

R/C 



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Edited 8/4/2003 9:59:32 PM ET by R/C Floats (RACHELSCHILD) 
  
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  From:  boodada   8/4/2003 8:27 pm  
To:  Bob (BOBKATZHOST)    (329 of 596)  
 
  628.329 in reply to 628.325  
 
You said: 
It is not I who said that the Father is the Son is the Holy Ghost. 
Boodada says: 
Who did???
 
  
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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    8/4/2003 9:54 pm  
To:  lifelightway   (330 of 596)  
 
  628.330 in reply to 628.298  
 
I deleted your post because making up another log on doesnt give you the right to come back to the forum and post.

 

I have been letting you reply on this topic because you have a lot of input in it.

 

But you have been banned from the forum and you need to honor the forum rules.

 

David



David A. Brown
Basic Christian: Forum
www.BasicChristian.org

 
  
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  From:  Bob (BOBKATZHOST)    8/5/2003 4:46 am  
To:  R/C Floats (RachelsChild)   (331 of 596)  
 
  628.331 in reply to 628.328  
 
The Bible contains many contridictions, some of which I have pointed out. The one I pointed out is neat because it is in the same chapter written by the same author.

You told me that the Father is the Son is the Holy Ghost. You have not answered the obvious contridictions in that.

Bob 

  




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Edited 8/5/2003 7:48:01 AM ET by Bob (BOBKATZHOST) 
  
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  From:  Bob (BOBKATZHOST)    8/5/2003 4:47 am  
To:  boodada   (332 of 596)  
 
  628.332 in reply to 628.329  
 
Take a look at post 315 
Bob 

  




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Edited 8/5/2003 7:48:16 AM ET by Bob (BOBKATZHOST) 
  
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  From:  R/C Floats (RachelsChild)   8/5/2003 5:07 am  
To:  Bob (BOBKATZHOST)    (333 of 596)  
 
  628.333 in reply to 628.331  
 
Hi Bob, 

Reread my post. I said God manifests Himself in three distinct attributes....Father, Son, Holy Spirit.Where is the contradiction? 

The Bible does not contradict itself. What was the Prophet Moses dimwitted, contradicting himsef within verses of eachother??? No,he wrote what God told him to write....remember Moses and God did speak face to face. 

You have not answered my question. What is a Christophany? 

R/C 
 
  
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  From:  Bob (BOBKATZHOST)    8/5/2003 5:43 am  
To:  R/C Floats (RachelsChild)   (334 of 596)  
 
  628.334 in reply to 628.333  
 
Why would God show Himself in three different ways? If all three are the same Personage, Then why would all three manifest themselves at Jesus' baptism? Why would Jesus pray to the Father when He is the Father? Why would Jesus ascend to the Father when He is the Father? How can Jesus sit onthe Right hand of the Father when He is the Father. 

It sounds to me like you feel that God is trying to decieve us and deception is not God's modis operandi.

The Bible is full of contridictions. I don't believe that Moses or any other Prophet was God's stenographer. They did not take dictation. Rather I believe that God showed them things and they wrote what they saw. 

I have no idea what Christophany is but I will look it up.

Bob 
 
  
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  From:  Bob (BOBKATZHOST)    8/5/2003 5:54 am  
To:  R/C Floats (RachelsChild)   (335 of 596)  
 
  628.335 in reply to 628.333  
 
Sorry, I have searched The Scriptures, an Encylopedia, A Dictionary, Smith's Bible Dictionary, Eaton's Bible Dictionary and have not come up with Christophany.
Bob 

 

 
  
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  From:  clrose1   8/5/2003 5:57 am  
To:  Bob (BOBKATZHOST)    (336 of 596)  
 
  628.336 in reply to 628.335  
 
Go to onelook.com Bob.  
  
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  From:  Bob (BOBKATZHOST)    8/5/2003 6:08 am  
To:  R/C Floats (RachelsChild)   (337 of 596)  
 
  628.337 in reply to 628.333  
 
christophany  appearance of Christ to men  


 

Interesting, So you are saying that Joseph Smith had a Christophany.

Bob 

  




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Edited 8/5/2003 11:04:19 AM ET by Bob (BOBKATZHOST) 
  
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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    8/5/2003 7:29 am  
To:  Bob (BOBKATZHOST)    (338 of 596)  
 
  628.338 in reply to 628.337  
 
No,

 

What we are saying is that Joseph Smith had a demonic visitation because why would God suddenly contradict Himself and start teaching against everything that He has taught previously.

 

That is a big part of the Triunity (Godhead) that God is three in one and therefore total agreement and  no contradictions obviously the Joseph Smith visitation is Not a part of this Triunity.

 

Your Exodus quote as a Bible contradiction  makes no sense. R/C is exactly right in pointing out that no one  has seen the Father at any time but man has looked upon Jesus from time to time.

 

David 

 



David A. Brown
Basic Christian: Forum
www.BasicChristian.org

 
  
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  From:  clrose1   8/5/2003 7:46 am  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (339 of 596)  
 
  628.339 in reply to 628.338  
 
The trinity is not Biblical. Christ is separate from the Father. there is proof of this when he prayed to His father. There is proof of this when Christ was baptized. 
  
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   From:  R/C Floats (RachelsChild)   8/5/2003 10:09 am  
To:  Bob (BOBKATZHOST)    (340 of 596)  
 
  628.340 in reply to 628.334  
 
Okay Bob, a question for you. What are you: a body,a soul,or a mind? 

Actually God literally wrote the Ten Commandments ( Exodus 34:1, Deut. 10:1-2 )on the tablets Moses made. Moses and Joshua did not see things..God literally spoke to them....Moses recorded what God spoke. 

R/C
 
  
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From:  Bob (BOBKATZHOST)    8/5/2003 10:14 am  
To:  R/C Floats (RachelsChild)   (341 of 596)  
 
  628.341 in reply to 628.340  
 
I am Spirit wrapped in a body of Flesh and Blood

The Tablets that God wrote upon were destroyed by Moses over the Golden Calf incident. The Tablets that ended up in the Ark of the Covenant were not written by God but were written by Moses. 

Bob 

 

 
  
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  From:  R/C Floats (RachelsChild)   8/5/2003 10:27 am  
To:  Bob (BOBKATZHOST)    (342 of 596)  
 
  628.342 in reply to 628.341  
 
Bob, 

What no mind? (lol who's writing these posts of yours?) 

Deut. 10:1 and 2 

>>>>> At that time the Lord said to me, "hew for yourself two tablets of stone like the FIRST, and come up to Me....." verse 2 >>> "And I WILL WRITE ON THE TABLETS the words which were on the first tablets which you broke: AND YOU SHALL PUT THEM IN THE ARK."<<<< (Caps mine) 

R/C 

 
  
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  From:  boodada   8/5/2003 10:29 am  
To:  clrose1   (343 of 596)  
 
  628.343 in reply to 628.339  
 
You said: 
The trinity is not Biblical. Christ is separate from the Father. there is proof of this when he prayed to His father. There is proof of this when Christ was baptized. 
Boodada says: 
In what way is Christ separate? 

The doctrine of the Trinity affirms three distinct persons in 
one God 

Why did Jesus say He was ONE with the Father? 

Why does John 1:3 say the Word (Jesus) created everything? 

 
  
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  From:  boodada   8/5/2003 10:31 am  
To:  R/C Floats (RachelsChild)   (344 of 596)  
 
  628.344 in reply to 628.315  
 
You said: 
Nonsense... God is the Father, the Holy Spirt and Jesus...three manifestations of His being. God doesn't "need" the Holy Spirit, He IS the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit was given to born again believers to help us. 
Boodada says: 
Bob seems to think you are denying the Trinity here 

Are you? 

Just wanting to clarify...especially since you used the word 
"manifestations"
 
  
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  From:  boodada   8/5/2003 10:33 am  
To:  Bob (BOBKATZHOST)    (345 of 596)  
 
  628.345 in reply to 628.332  
 
Thanks, Bob 
I have asked her for clarification 

My apologies too :)
 
  
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  From:  clrose1   8/5/2003 10:41 am  
To:  boodada   (346 of 596)  
 
  628.346 in reply to 628.343  
 
If you look at Christ when He was praying He was asking the father to take this cup from Him. But not as I will... If it wasn't as Christ would??? This says that there was two individuals... Christ who didn't want to go through with this, but He did go through it because His father willed it. 
When Christ was baptised we see Christ come up out of the water, then we see a dove come out of the heavens, and hear a voice from the heavens proclaiming Christ as Gods beloved son. 

These do not fit trinitarian theology. 

Christ said He was one with the Father because they are one in purpose. When you get married you are twain one flesh, and disciples were told to be one as they were (John 17). 

And, John 1:3 says that Jesus created everything because He did (under the direction of His father)
 
  
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  From:  Bob (BOBKATZHOST)    8/5/2003 10:49 am  
To:  R/C Floats (RachelsChild)   (347 of 596)  
 
  628.347 in reply to 628.342  
 
Interesting. Thank you. I had not realized that. I had always thought that Moses wrote on the second set. 
Bob 

 

 
  
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  From:  Bob (BOBKATZHOST)    8/5/2003 10:53 am  
To:  boodada   (348 of 596)  
 
  628.348 in reply to 628.344  
 
I don't think she is denying the Trinity, but she is afirming the trinity as many have told me; ie the Father is the Son is the Holy Ghost, which is what I deny.

 

Bob 

 

 
  
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  From:  boodada   8/5/2003 10:54 am  
To:  clrose1   (349 of 596)  
 
  628.349 in reply to 628.346  
 
You said: 
If you look at Christ when He was praying He was asking the father to take this cup from Him. But not as I will... If it wasn't as Christ would??? This says that there was two individuals... Christ who didn't want to go through with this, but He did go through it because His father willed it. 
Boodada says: 
Yes, so? Christ is not the Father 

You said: 
When Christ was baptised we see Christ come up out of the water, then we see a dove come out of the heavens, and hear a voice from the heavens proclaiming Christ as Gods beloved son. 

These do not fit trinitarian theology. 

Boodada says: 
WHAT? They do == you obviously don't understand trinitarian theology 

You might want to study a bit 

Do you really think pointing these examples out suddenly deflates 
2000 years of defending this truth? 

You said: 
Christ said He was one with the Father because they are one in purpose. When you get married you are twain one flesh, and disciples were told to be one as they were (John 17). 

Boodada says: 
When Christ said it, they went for the rocks 

You said: 
And, John 1:3 says that Jesus created everything because He did (under the direction of His father) 

Boodada says: 
So Jesus is the Creator, not the Father?
 
  
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  From:  R/C Floats (RachelsChild)   8/5/2003 11:22 am  
To:  boodada   (350 of 596)  
 
  628.350 in reply to 628.344  
 
No, I was trying to affirm the Trinity ;)....I should have used a better description then, "manifestations." (ie...distinct persons) 
R/C 



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Edited 8/5/2003 2:30:37 PM ET by R/C Floats (RACHELSCHILD) 
  
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  From:  R/C Floats (RachelsChild)   8/5/2003 11:34 am  
To:  Bob (BOBKATZHOST)    (351 of 596)  
 
  628.351 in reply to 628.337  
 
Nope, not saying Joseph Smith encountered Jesus. A very good defintion and explination of a Christophany can be read at: 

http://www.ichthys.com/index.htm#C 

R/C
 
  
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  From:  clrose1   8/5/2003 11:45 am  
To:  boodada   (352 of 596)  
 
  628.352 in reply to 628.349  
 
Exactly... Christ is not the father. Logically, this would say they are not one. Since we know they are one, then one in purpose makes sense. 
Jesus is the creator of all things. The father is the creator of all things through His son Jesus Christ. It is like at work a lot of the time my boss gets credit for things that I have done. My boss created such and such because he commissioned me to do it. I also created the same thing.
 
  
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  From:  boodada   8/5/2003 11:58 am  
To:  R/C Floats (RachelsChild)   (353 of 596)  
 
  628.353 in reply to 628.350  
 
You said: 
No, I was trying to affirm the Trinity ;)....I should have used a better description then, "manifestations." (ie...distinct persons) 
R/C 
Boodada says: 
Just checking :) 

Unfortunately, this is a case where language really limits us 

You say "person" these days and people think you mean an actual 
person 

That's not what the church fathers meant
 
  
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  From:  boodada   8/5/2003 11:59 am  
To:  clrose1   (354 of 596)  
 
  628.354 in reply to 628.352  
 
You said: 
Jesus is the creator of all things. The father is the creator of all things through His son Jesus Christ. It is like at work a lot of the time my boss gets credit for things that I have done. My boss created such and such because he commissioned me to do it. I also created the same thing. 
Boodada says: 
So Jesus is God then 

Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God made the heavens and the earth 

Cool!
 
  
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  From:  clrose1   8/5/2003 12:18 pm  
To:  boodada   (355 of 596)  
 
  628.355 in reply to 628.354  
 
Yes. This is what we believe. God organized the earth through His son Jesus Christ. 
  
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  From:  R/C Floats (RachelsChild)   8/5/2003 12:30 pm  
To:  Bob (BOBKATZHOST)    (356 of 596)  
 
  628.356 in reply to 628.347  
 
Well probably many have missed the difference. ( it doesn't exactly jump off the page. :) In all honesty, ( for very personal reasons) I have studied up a lot on the life (and temperament) of Moses. 

Another very interesting aspect to the giving of The 10 Commandments was,in the first set, God made the tablets ( Exodus 24:12) but for the second set, God commanded Moses to make the tablets. ( Exodus 34:1 ) 

Moses occaisionally had temper outburts, ( to his detrement) and in this case he threw the very work of God's hands to the ground in a rage over the people's idolatry. God overlooked the outburst BUT for the second set of tablets, Moses was required to do the physical work of preparing the tablets. ( labor which I'm sure Moses must have reflected upon.) 

R/C 
 
  
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  From:  lifelightway   8/5/2003 1:10 pm  
To:  R/C Floats (RachelsChild)   (357 of 596)  
 
  628.357 in reply to 628.318  
 
<<<I have read credible books (bios) of Mormon women who were taught that Jesus was literally conceived by God in the flesh...>>> 
"Concieved by God in the flesh" does not require sex. Mary was a virgin and this has always been church doctrine. Any other teaching is and always has been deemed false. The method of Mary's conception is a mystery. All we know is that Jesus is the Only begotten of the Father. 

<<<...and that they could NOT obtain salvation unless sealed to a man.>>> 

This is incorrect in a couple ways. First, it is not just salvation that the everlasting covenant of marriage brings. This makes exaltation possible. Second of all, men cannot recieve it without women either. It requires both a man and a women. 

<<<One particular women (and I'll have to find the book) was raised in a large polygamous group in Arizona,,,around Fredonia if I remember correctly. She spoke of the LDS as not representing the fundamental teachings of the church but had sold out doctrine for statehood.>>> 

Anyone who practiced polygamy after it was rescinded faces excommunication. Polygamy lasted for 50 years in the church. It served God's purposes to raise seed up unot him. Especially after our people were murdered off and families had no way to provide for eachother. Go to the "Abraham and his wives" thread for that discussion. 

-Stephen
 
  
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  From:  lifelightway   8/5/2003 1:42 pm  
To:  boodada   (358 of 596)  
 
  628.358 in reply to 628.321  
 
I said: 
Do you think that Paul would use heresy as a proof of the resurrection of our Lord Jesus Christ? 
Boodada says: 
Paul used pagan poetry in the book of Acts to make a point about 
God, so your argument crumbles 
** Furthermore, wasn't the point in the poetry true? So my argument stands. Paul was an appostle and missionary. It wasn't his calling to perform such.*** 

1 Cor 15:40-41 

"There are also heavenly bodies and there are earthly bodies; but the splendor of the heavenly bodies is one kind, and the splendor of the earthly bodies is another. The sun has one kind of splendor, the moon another and the stars another; and star differs from star in splendor." 

Then what did Paul say? "Such is the resurrection of the dead." That is, there are different glories in the ressurection. Also, Jesus taught, "In my Fathers house there are many mansions. Were it not so, I would have told you." And, "He who does and teaches these commandments will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. Those who breaks the least of these commandments and teaches others to do so, will be called least in the kingdom of heaven." 

Everyone is different, and rightly so, we will be judged individually by our works. Do you agree that each of us will be judged by our works? 

Christ taught that none can enter the kingdom of God without Baptism. Read John 3:5 and Mark 16:16. 

Boodada says: 
No He did not. 
Did the thief on the cross get baptized? 

The thief went to Paradise. This is not Heaven. Heaven does not come to pass until after the Millenium. The spirit world (Hades) is made up of two parts. One for the repentant, and one for the rebellious. The thief will still need baptism (if he hadn't already had it. We don't know anything about his life.) 

Boodada says: 
Really? So that means all the Old Testament Saints have to be 
baptized by proxy too, huh? 

Yup. The last are first and the first are last. Even Jesus was baptized. Do you think that anybody is better than him? 

"And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse." [Mal 4:6] 

Boodada: What in the world does this verse have to do with Christians, considering it's about JEWS? 

**Maybe you could elaborate exactly what it is talking about then.** 

-Stephen 

 
  
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  From:  R/C Floats (RachelsChild)   8/5/2003 1:50 pm  
To:  boodada   (359 of 596)  
 
  628.359 in reply to 628.353  
 
Boodada: 

Hey, it's good to check, my language was obscure; but Scripture is not. 

John 5:23>>>>"That all should honor the Son JUST AS they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the father who sent Him."<<<<< 

John 10:30>>>>>" I and My Father are one." 

John 8;58>>> " Jesus said to them, " Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham, I AM." <<<<< ( see especially Exodus 3:14)where God says He is I AM.) 

John 5:18 >>> "Therefore the Jews sought all the more to kill Him, because He not only broke the Sabbath, but also said that God was His Father, making Himself equal to God."<<<<< 

R/C 

 
  
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   From:  lifelightway   8/5/2003 1:51 pm  
To:  boodada   (360 of 596)  
 
  628.360 in reply to 628.322  
 
Me: I suggest you look over the last ten posts or so and see how much more Biblical backing we really have. (if your hosts haven't deleted them already) 
Boodada says: 
I've seen nothing of the sort. As usual. 

*** It happens. *** 

But you can keep making your case. 

***There seems to be no point in making my case, since you have ignored the scriptures I have posted.*** 

Boodada says: 
I've read lots from many sides, and continue to do so. Your faith is based on a charlatan who dug for money and ripped people off before he found a more spiritual use for it. 

*** Yes, I can tell how "un-biased your sources are. Tell me. Do you go to the Nazis to find out the history of the Jews? I would hope not.*** 

Boodada says: 
I did, and He says you guys are wrong and promoting an abominable lie that His church was unable to stay on the earth for more than a hundred years or so and vanished for almost two millenia. 

*** The sciptures call for a falling away (apostasia in Greek). This happened just like Christ knew it would.*** 

-Stephen 

 
  
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From:  boodada   8/5/2003 2:00 pm  
To:  clrose1   (361 of 596)  
 
  628.361 in reply to 628.355  
 
You said: 
Yes. This is what we believe. God organized the earth through His son Jesus Christ. 
Boodada says: 
So God didn't actually create anything?
 
  
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  From:  boodada   8/5/2003 2:02 pm  
To:  lifelightway   (362 of 596)  
 
  628.362 in reply to 628.360  
 
Boodada says: 
I did, and He says you guys are wrong and promoting an abominable lie that His church was unable to stay on the earth for more than a hundred years or so and vanished for almost two millenia. 
You said: 
The sciptures call for a falling away (apostasia in Greek). This happened just like Christ knew it would. 

Boodada says: 
Laughing out loud -- the scriptures do not record "apostasia" 
unless you can find it for me 

This is especially enlightening given that Jesus promised He would aways be with us, the Holy Spirit would guide the church, and the church wouldn't fail. 

So according to you, all three statements from Jesus are false 

P.S. Is John the apostle still alive? 

 
  
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  From:  clrose1   8/5/2003 2:03 pm  
To:  boodada   (363 of 596)  
 
  628.363 in reply to 628.361  
 
That would be false. God created Jesus Christ, and each of us. God created through His Son Jesus Christ, the earth and everything in it. Jesus Christs plan was to give all the glory to the father, not taking it for Himself. 
  
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  From:  clrose1   8/5/2003 2:04 pm  
To:  boodada   (364 of 596)  
 
  628.364 in reply to 628.362  
 
You know that John the apostle is still alive. He was translated. 
  
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  From:  boodada   8/5/2003 2:05 pm  
To:  Bob (BOBKATZHOST)    (365 of 596)  
 
  628.365 in reply to 628.348  
 
You said: 
I don't think she is denying the Trinity, but she is afirming the trinity as many have told me; ie the Father is the Son is the Holy Ghost, which is what I deny. 
Boodada says: 
Trinitarians deny it too, Bob 

Your're talking about heresies called "Modalism" or perhaps "Sabbellianism" 

Like the United Pentecostal Church -- they believe Jesus is the 
Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit 

They do NOT believe in the Trinity, and they don't even like to use the word except to say the only trinity is that Jesus is all three 
of these titles -- Dad, Son, and Spirit 

Got it now? 

This is NOT ORTHODOX CHRISTIANITY
 
  
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  From:  boodada   8/5/2003 2:06 pm  
To:  clrose1   (366 of 596)  
 
  628.366 in reply to 628.363  
 
You said: 
That would be false. God created Jesus Christ, and each of us. 
Boodada says: 
So God made Jesus, and Jesus made everything else? 

Interesting. 

So what does John 1:3 mean? 

Did Jesus create Himself?
 
  
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  From:  boodada   8/5/2003 2:07 pm  
To:  clrose1   (367 of 596)  
 
  628.367 in reply to 628.364  
 
You said: 
You know that John the apostle is still alive. He was translated. 
Boodada says: 
Nope. He died on the island of Patmos, a long time ago. 

History confirms this.
 
  
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  From:  R/C Floats (RachelsChild)   8/5/2003 2:09 pm  
To:  lifelightway   (368 of 596)  
 
  628.368 in reply to 628.357  
 
You have not addressed the issue of what is or isn't, Mormon. Within the Mormon faith are many sects. ( or denominations if you prefer.) All claim to carry the mantle of Joseph Smith and/or Brigham Young. 

The accounts and testimonies I have read and heard about Polygamy, are from women who said they were raised MORMON but non LDS variety. 

Christians are not spreading false stories about the various practices found within Mormonism. In that the LDS version of Morminism sanctions or disapproves of other non LDS Mormon practices is neither here nor there. The other groups identify themselves as Mormons. 

R/C 
 
  
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  From:  clrose1   8/5/2003 2:14 pm  
To:  boodada   (369 of 596)  
 
  628.369 in reply to 628.366  
 
Only if you call Jesus a thing. 
  
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  From:  boodada   8/5/2003 2:15 pm  
To:  clrose1   (370 of 596)  
 
  628.370 in reply to 628.369  
 
????? 
  
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  From:  clrose1   8/5/2003 2:25 pm  
To:  boodada   (371 of 596)  
 
  628.371 in reply to 628.367  
 
funny, most of Christianity believes John died in Ephesus, not Patmos where he was exiled. 
Show me where it is well documented.
 
  
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  From:  clrose1   8/5/2003 2:26 pm  
To:  boodada   (372 of 596)  
 
  628.372 in reply to 628.370  
 
Things are made... Without Jesus was not anything made that was made. Jesus is a spirit son of God the Father. 
  
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  From:  lifelightway   8/5/2003 3:22 pm  
To:  R/C Floats (RachelsChild)   (373 of 596)  
 
  628.373 in reply to 628.368  
 
What is or isn't Mormon? 
Anyone can claim to be a "Mormon." I continue to acknowledge those who do so at their own free will. It is a term that people called members of the church when it was being formed and it stuck. 

Yet not everyone under this category is a member of the Lord's church. 

(Funny that Boodada is explaining the difference between "orthodox christianity" and other forms.) 

-Stephen
 
  
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  From:  lifelightway   8/5/2003 4:06 pm  
To:  boodada   (374 of 596)  
 
  628.374 in reply to 628.349  
 
Boodada says: 
So Jesus is the Creator, not the Father? 
Me: Technically, God the Father created the heaven and the earth BY and THROUGH Jesus Christ.  

Eph. 3: 9 God, who created all things by Jesus Christ. 

Heb. 1: 2 by whom also he made the worlds. 

It was by Christ's faith and His obedience to the Father's will that all things were created. 

Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.  {Heb 11:3} 

You must understand that in LDS theology, Jehovah is Jesus Christ before he entered into mortality. Jehovah and our Heavenly Father are distinct. The "oneness" of Christ and the Father is explained here. 

St. John 17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. 
22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: 
23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me. 
24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world. 

Before you completely ignore this passage. I want you to pay attention to a number of things. First of all, the meaning of '"oneness". We know that Jesus says that he and the Father are one. Yet, this oneness is clearly not in essence or substance as many Christians believe. This concept was made up in order to fight off accusations that Christianity was polytheistic. 

Second, "even as we are one". Notice that we can be one with the Father in the same way Christ is. I previously gave scriptures which you ignored concerning exaltation: being "joint-heirs with Christ", being set down in his throne even as he is set down in his Father's throne, and Christ's command, "Therefore, become perfect, even as your Father in Heaven is perfect." This is reiterated above, "they may be perfect in one". 

Third, the Father gave Jesus the glory. It wasn't his to begin with and Christ explains this elsewhere in scripture. Christ is an heir to all the Father has and thus, inherits. How can you inherit that which is already yours. 

Fourth, the Father loved the Son before the foundation of the world. If the Son and the Father are one being. Is God simply saying that He loves himself? Or elsewhere, "with whom I am well pleased". Is God just saying He is well pleased with himself? 

John 5: 30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me. 

Again, Jesus is his "own self" with his "own will" and was sent by someone other than himself. 

Matt. 24: 36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. 

Jesus didn't know what the Father knew. 

John 20: 17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God. 

The God of Jesus is God the Father. Both hold the "title" of God, yet they are seperate individuals. The Bible clearly demonstrates this. The word "Elohim" and "let US create man in OUR own image, both male and female" also indicates that there is more than one individual. 

Remember what Jesus replied when accused of making himself God. "I have said, ye are gods." Curious answer don't you think? Man has become one of US, to know good and evil. 

The "oneness" of God is purely spiritual not bodily. More than one body may hold the title "God", yet spiritually there is only one God. This is what the Bible teaches and what the LDS teach. 

 
  
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  From:  lifelightway   8/5/2003 4:36 pm  
To:  boodada   (375 of 596)  
 
  628.375 in reply to 628.362  
 
Boodada says: 
Laughing out loud -- the scriptures do not record "apostasia" 
unless you can find it for me 
2 Thes. 2: 1 NOW we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 

The original Greek "apostasia'" is translated to "falling away". 

Boodada: This is especially enlightening given that Jesus promised He would aways be with us, the Holy Spirit would guide the church, and the church wouldn't fail. 

The rock on which the church was built was not Peter. That is a Catholic argument. The passage explains how revelation is the rock on which the church is built. Peter didn't last long at all. 

Matt 16:15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? 
16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. 
17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. 
18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. 

Why did Christ call Peter blessed? Because he knew by the Holy Spirit that Jesus is the Christ. Flesh and blood didn't reveal this truth. God revealed it to him and this is the rock, this is how we find truth. Then it explains how Peter would recieve the priesthood keys. 

19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. 

(By the way, you guys ignored my scriptures about the priesthood, authority, and the Church of Christ. Why?) 

The cornerstone of the Church is Christ. He will never crumble, but the rest of the church did and some truth was lost along with the priesthood. The winds beat upon that house, and it fell, Matt. 7: 27 The people were removed to another gospel so soon that Paul marveled. Gal. 1: 6. The church did not endure sound doctrine 2 Tim. 4: 3-4. Some men said they were Apostles and were not, Rev. 2: 2. And darkness covered the earth Isa. 60: 2. 

Like Christ demonstrated, personal revelation will never fail, but flesh and blood will. If you want truth, go to God in prayer. This has been available to all men throughout the history of the world. Yet the keys that were given to Peter to organize the church (the priesthood) were lost. That is when false concepts crept in as prophesied. 

The Lord will send a famine of hearing the words of the Lord, Amos 8: 11 

How do we hear the words of the Lord? By God's chosen apostles and prophets. It has been this way through the history of the world and this hasn't changed. 



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Edited 8/5/2003 7:47:11 PM ET by LIFELIGHTWAY 
  
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  From:  boodada   8/5/2003 6:18 pm  
To:  lifelightway   (376 of 596)  
 
  628.376 in reply to 628.373  
 
Funny that Boodada is explaining the difference between "orthodox christianity" and other forms. 
Boodada says: 
Excuse me?
 
  
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  From:  boodada   8/5/2003 6:29 pm  
To:  lifelightway   (377 of 596)  
 
  628.377 in reply to 628.374  
 
Boodada says: 
So Jesus is the Creator, not the Father? 
Me: Technically, God the Father created the heaven and the earth BY and THROUGH Jesus Christ. 

Eph. 3: 9 God, who created all things by Jesus Christ. 

Heb. 1: 2 by whom also he made the worlds. 

It was by Christ's faith and His obedience to the Father's will that all things were created. 

Boodada says: 
So Yahweh didn't actually MAKE anything 

He just oversaw the work? 

You said: 
You must understand that in LDS theology, Jehovah is Jesus Christ before he entered into mortality. Jehovah and our Heavenly Father are distinct. The "oneness" of Christ and the Father is explained here. 

Boodada says: 
Ah, so Jehovah IS Jesus Christ! 

So when we read Exodus 20 and God says to have NO OTHER GODS before Him, that's a real problem for LDS theology. After all, Jesus 
just said He's the God and the Father got left out of the picture 

You said: 
Before you completely ignore this passage. I want you to pay attention to a number of things. First of all, the meaning of '"oneness". We know that Jesus says that he and the Father are one. Yet, this oneness is clearly not in essence or substance as many Christians believe. This concept was made up in order to fight off accusations that Christianity was polytheistic. 

Boodada says: 
Sorry, obviously I disagree. There isn't a single verse in the 
scriptures that says Jesus is a created being 

Incarnated, yes, but created, no 

John 1:3 says He made everything that was made, so of course then logically He could not be made. 

And the only un-made being is God 

You said: 
Second, "even as we are one". Notice that we can be one with the Father in the same way Christ is. I previously gave scriptures which you ignored concerning exaltation: being "joint-heirs with Christ", being set down in his throne even as he is set down in his Father's throne, and Christ's command, "Therefore, become perfect, even as your Father in Heaven is perfect." This is reiterated above, "they may be perfect in one". 

Boodada says: 
We are joint heirs but we are not exalted to godhood 

THAT is polytheism 

You said: 
Third, the Father gave Jesus the glory. It wasn't his to begin with and Christ explains this elsewhere in scripture. 

Boodada says: 
It wasn't? 

John 17:5 "And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began." 

You said: 
Christ is an heir to all the Father has and thus, inherits. How can you inherit that which is already yours. 

Boodada says: 
Read Philippians 2 

You said: 
Fourth, the Father loved the Son before the foundation of the world. If the Son and the Father are one being. Is God simply saying that He loves himself? Or elsewhere, "with whom I am well pleased". Is God just saying He is well pleased with himself? 

Boodada says: 
One being, three persons. As long as you continue to collapse the 
persons into one, then of course it doesn't make sense 

You said: 
John 5: 30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me. 

Again, Jesus is his "own self" with his "own will" and was sent by someone other than himself. 

Boodada says: 
Because Jesus is distinct from the Father 

You said: 
Matt. 24: 36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. 

Jesus didn't know what the Father knew. 

Boodada says: 
That's right. Read Phil 2 -- Jesus relinquished divine perogatives 
when He became a servant 

Then read Hebrews where it says Jesus was tempted in all things 

Does that make Jesus superior to the Father since the Father has not 
had this experience? 

You said: 
The God of Jesus is God the Father. Both hold the "title" of God, yet they are seperate individuals. The Bible clearly demonstrates this. The word "Elohim" and "let US create man in OUR own image, both male and female" also indicates that there is more than one individual. 

Boodada says: 
Wrong, which is why GOD is SINGULAR here 

You said: 
Remember what Jesus replied when accused of making himself God. "I have said, ye are gods." Curious answer don't you think? Man has become one of US, to know good and evil. 

Boodada says: 
That is not what it says -- it says "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil." 

Man has become like God in the sense of knowing good and evil 

So what? 

There is a lot more to God than that 

You said: 
The "oneness" of God is purely spiritual not bodily. More than one body may hold the title "God", yet spiritually there is only one God. This is what the Bible teaches and what the LDS teach. 

Boodada says: 
Well, if there is only one God, then Jesus cannot be God by your logic 

Scripture says there is ONE 

Pick one 

 
  
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  From:  boodada   8/5/2003 6:40 pm  
To:  clrose1   (378 of 596)  
 
  628.378 in reply to 628.371  
 
Whoops, my bad 
Ephesus is right 

As far as his death, there is plenty of church tradition that John the apostle died in Ephesus 

So unless you can produce him alive...
 
  
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  From:  boodada   8/5/2003 6:40 pm  
To:  clrose1   (379 of 596)  
 
  628.379 in reply to 628.372  
 
You said: 
Things are made... Without Jesus was not anything made that was made. Jesus is a spirit son of God the Father. 
Boodada says: 
Spirit son? 

What is THAT?
 
  
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   From:  boodada   8/5/2003 6:48 pm  
To:  lifelightway   (380 of 596)  
 
  628.380 in reply to 628.375  
 
Boodada says: 
Laughing out loud -- the scriptures do not record "apostasia" 
unless you can find it for me 
You said: 
2 Thes. 2: 1 NOW we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 

The original Greek "apostasia'" is translated to "falling away". 

Boodada says: 
So some will FALL AWAY 

That's quite the contrast from a FULL APOSTASY 

SO if there was no full apostasy, then there was a remnant and 
Joseph Smith erred greatly 

... 

Boodada: This is especially enlightening given that Jesus promised He would aways be with us, the Holy Spirit would guide the church, and the church wouldn't fail. 

You said: 
The rock on which the church was built was not Peter. That is a Catholic argument. The passage explains how revelation is the rock on which the church is built. Peter didn't last long at all. 

Boodada says: 
The rock is Christ, or some say, the confession of Peter. Either 
way, Christ is the head of the church. 

If you say His church disappeared, then you're saying Christ is an incompetent head of His own church 

You said: 
Then it explains how Peter would recieve the priesthood keys. 

Boodada says: 
There is no such thing as "priesthood keys" 

You said: 
By the way, you guys ignored my scriptures about the priesthood, authority, and the Church of Christ. Why? 

Boodada says: 
I must have missed that -- give me the reference and I'll look 
at it 

You said: 
The cornerstone of the Church is Christ. He will never crumble, but the rest of the church did and some truth was lost along with the priesthood. The winds beat upon that house, and it fell, Matt. 7: 27 

Boodada says: 
You're misapplying scripture. Jesus' parable about the winds and the house has to do with judgment. 

Not to mention there was still a house on the rock, so the house on the rock stood. 

That means you cannot bring in a new church and place it on top of the existing one 

You said: 
The people were removed to another gospel so soon that Paul marveled. Gal. 1: 6. The church did not endure sound doctrine 2 Tim. 4: 3-4. Some men said they were Apostles and were not, Rev. 2: 2. And darkness covered the earth Isa. 60: 2. 

Boodada says: 
Wow, look at you jump all around scripture to try and make some kind of false argument 

Isaiah 60:2 See, darkness covers the earth 
and thick darkness is over the peoples, 
but the LORD rises upon you 
and his glory appears over you. 

Uh, I think this is talking about the darkness before 
the risen Christ 

You said: 
Like Christ demonstrated, personal revelation will never fail, but flesh and blood will. If you want truth, go to God in prayer. This has been available to all men throughout the history of the world. Yet the keys that were given to Peter to organize the church (the priesthood) were lost. That is when false concepts crept in as prophesied. 

Boodada says: 
They keys were not lost -- Jesus has them safe and secure in 
Revelation 

 
  
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From:  boodada   8/5/2003 6:53 pm  
To:  lifelightway   (381 of 596)  
 
  628.381 in reply to 628.358  
 
You said: 
1 Cor 15:40-41 
"There are also heavenly bodies and there are earthly bodies; but the splendor of the heavenly bodies is one kind, and the splendor of the earthly bodies is another. The sun has one kind of splendor, the moon another and the stars another; and star differs from star in splendor." 

Then what did Paul say? "Such is the resurrection of the dead." That is, there are different glories in the ressurection. 

Boodada says: 
Okay 

You said: 
Also, Jesus taught, "In my Fathers house there are many mansions. Were it not so, I would have told you." And, "He who does and teaches these commandments will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. Those who breaks the least of these commandments and teaches others to do so, will be called least in the kingdom of heaven." 

Everyone is different, and rightly so, we will be judged individually by our works. Do you agree that each of us will be judged by our works? 

Boodada says: 
We will be saved by faith, and judged by works 

And yes, we will be rewarded differently. 

That's the point of Paul's argument 

As opposed to LDS theology which leans on that passage to argue there are three levels of heaven to which we go to 

Right? 

You said: 
Christ taught that none can enter the kingdom of God without Baptism. Read John 3:5 and Mark 16:16. 

Boodada says: 
Baptism of the Holy Spirit 

... 

Boodada says: 
No He did not. 
Did the thief on the cross get baptized? 

You said: 
The thief went to Paradise. This is not Heaven. 

Boodada says: 
Oh, I guess heaven must not be as nice 

You said: 
Heaven does not come to pass until after the Millenium. 

Boodada says: 
Scripture, please 

You said: 
The spirit world (Hades) is made up of two parts. One for the repentant, and one for the rebellious. The thief will still need baptism (if he hadn't already had it. We don't know anything about his life.) 

Boodada says: 
Nonsense. If you were right, then we should see people being baptized by proxy in the bible, and the early church should have some record of it 

Whoops 

... 

Boodada says: 
Really? So that means all the Old Testament Saints have to be 
baptized by proxy too, huh? 

You said: 
Yup. The last are first and the first are last. Even Jesus was baptized. Do you think that anybody is better than him? 

Boodada says: 
Jesus didn't need to be water baptized, He did it to fulfill all righteousness, and since it is a work of righteousness, it does not save us (Titus 3:5-6) 

.... 

"And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse." [Mal 4:6] 

Boodada: What in the world does this verse have to do with Christians, considering it's about JEWS? 

You said: 
Maybe you could elaborate exactly what it is talking about then. 

Boodada says: 
Don't have a clue? 

 
  
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  From:  R/C Floats (RachelsChild)   8/5/2003 7:12 pm  
To:  clrose1   (382 of 596)  
 
  628.382 in reply to 628.364  
 
Where in the Bible is that notion recorded? Only two men were translated (did not die) into Heaven, Enoch and Elijah. 

Christians believe Enoch and Elijah may well be the two witnesses (that are yet to come) spoken of by John in Rev.11:1-14. 

R/C
 
  
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  From:  lifelightway   8/5/2003 8:30 pm  
To:  boodada   (383 of 596)  
 
  628.383 in reply to 628.377  
 
<<<So Yahweh didn't actually MAKE anything. He just oversaw the work?>>> 
Other way. "Elohim" gave power and authority to "Yahweh" (Jehovah). It was by and through Jehovah that the worlds were made. 
Boodada says: 
Ah, so Jehovah IS Jesus Christ! 

Yes. Jehovah and His Father make up two distinct members in the Godhead. "Elohim" has spirit children, Jehovah being the eldest. 

<<<So when we read Exodus 20 and God says to have NO OTHER GODS before Him, that's a real problem for LDS theology.>>> 

No problem at all. The Bible and Book of Mormon clearly teach that there is one God. Yet, what you don't understand is that they are one in spirit, not one in substance or essence. You have already ignored the passages I clearly spelled out for you and told you not to ignore. Scripture often refers to "other" gods and false idols. The Godhead is spiritually one, therefore not "other". 

Boodada says: 
Sorry, obviously I disagree. There isn't a single verse in the 
scriptures that says Jesus is a created being. 

I wouldn't say that Jesus was created either. Begotten ... sure. 

Boodada says: 
We are joint heirs but we are not exalted to godhood. 
THAT is polytheism. 

If we become "one" with God. There isn't more than one God in a spiritual sense. Just because more than one person is under the "Elohim" title, does not mean that there is more than one God. Are you going to ignore what I am saying so I have to repeat myself over and over? I wonder what you think when we are asked to be a church with one heart and one mind. Is that over your head? 

John 17:5 "And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began." 

And Christ said, "The glory which thou hast given me." The Father gave it to Christ and Christ had authority to create the Heavens and the Earth. Clearly two distinct individuals. The Father being greater. 

Boodada says: 
Because Jesus is distinct from the Father 

Exactly 

So why don't you show me in the Bible where it says Trinity, or one in substance/essence. Clearly all you have is a nonsensical and confusing interpretation that nobody really understands. Then you say something like "Well, you can't really understand God." O.K. maybe you can't, but I understand it quite well. 

<<<Then read Hebrews where it says Jesus was tempted in all things. Does that make Jesus superior to the Father since the Father has not 
had this experience?>>> 

How do you know what the Father has or has not experienced. Wouldn't you suffer while witnessing the suffering of your child? 

Boodada says: 
Wrong, which is why GOD is SINGULAR here 

If the Hebrew was meant to be singular, it would read "Eloah". No it reads "Elohim" which is plural despite the singular verb. 

Boodada says: 
Well, if there is only one God, then Jesus cannot be God by your logic. Scripture says there is ONE. Pick one. 

Spiritually. There is ONE. The scriptures commonly use "one" in this sense and you refuse to acknowledge this fact. "They may be perfect in one." "I in them as thou are in me" "Even as we are one" 

Clearly, there were twelve apostles, but they were to become "one" with Jesus even as Jesus is "one" with the Father. Christ taught it in these exact words, yet you refuse to accept it. That is your loss. 

 
  
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  From:  Bob (BOBKATZHOST)    8/5/2003 8:46 pm  
To:  boodada   (384 of 596)  
 
  628.384 in reply to 628.365  
 
Like I said, Many have told me that The Father, Son and Holy Ghost are one God, one Being. I don't accept it.

My understanding is that The Father, Son and Holy Ghost are Separate and Distinct Personages. They are not one in body but they are one in purpose. Perhaps this verse will help:

(Doctrine and Covenants 130:22.)


22 The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man's; the Son also; but the Holy Ghost has not a body of flesh and bones, but is a personage of Spirit. Were it not so, the Holy Ghost could not dwell in us.

Bob 

 

 
  
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  From:  boodada   8/5/2003 9:51 pm  
To:  lifelightway   (385 of 596)  
 
  628.385 in reply to 628.383  
 
<<<So Yahweh didn't actually MAKE anything. He just oversaw the work?>>> 
You said: 
Other way. "Elohim" gave power and authority to "Yahweh" (Jehovah). 

Boodada says: 
Elohim is who now? The Father? 

You said: 
It was by and through Jehovah that the worlds were made. 

Boodada says: 
Ah, so Jehovah IS Jesus Christ! 

You said: 
Yes. Jehovah and His Father make up two distinct members in the Godhead. "Elohim" has spirit children, Jehovah being the eldest. 

Boodada says: 
And I can read about this WHERE in scripture? 

<<<So when we read Exodus 20 and God says to have NO OTHER GODS before Him, that's a real problem for LDS theology.>>> 

You said: 
No problem at all. The Bible and Book of Mormon clearly teach that there is one God. 

Boodada says: 
Oh, so even though you say there are three beings, only one is God. 

Okay 

You said: 
Yet, what you don't understand is that they are one in spirit, not one in substance or essence. 

Boodada says: 
What is the difference? 

You said: 
You have already ignored the passages I clearly spelled out for you and told you not to ignore. 

Boodada says: 
No, I just find your theology absurd and can only try to correct so much. I am a busy man. 

You said: 
Scripture often refers to "other" gods and false idols. The Godhead is spiritually one, therefore not "other". 

Boodada says: 
How many gods are there in the Godhead? 

.... 

Boodada says: 
Sorry, obviously I disagree. There isn't a single verse in the 
scriptures that says Jesus is a created being. 

You said: 
I wouldn't say that Jesus was created either. Begotten ... sure. 

Boodada says: 
Begotten means what? 

Since you say Jesus wasn't created, then how is Elohim older than Jesus? 

... 

Boodada says: 
We are joint heirs but we are not exalted to godhood. 
THAT is polytheism. 

You said: 
If we become "one" with God. There isn't more than one God in a spiritual sense. Just because more than one person is under the "Elohim" title, does not mean that there is more than one God. 

Boodada says: 
Boy, that said nothing 

You said: 
Are you going to ignore what I am saying so I have to repeat myself over and over? I wonder what you think when we are asked to be a church with one heart and one mind. Is that over your head? 

Boodada says: 
Not at all. I understand what it means. 

... 

 
  
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  From:  boodada   8/5/2003 9:53 pm  
To:  lifelightway   (386 of 596)  
 
  628.386 in reply to 628.383  
 
John 17:5 "And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began." 
You said: 
And Christ said, "The glory which thou hast given me." The Father gave it to Christ and Christ had authority to create the Heavens and the Earth. Clearly two distinct individuals. The Father being greater. 

Boodada says: 
SO then Christ cannot be the true God, since Jesus said there is only one. If Jesus is an inferior God, then He isn't the true God ergo He is a false God 

... 

Boodada says: 
Because Jesus is distinct from the Father 

You said: 
Exactly 

Boodada says: 
But not distinct in substance 

You said: 
So why don't you show me in the Bible where it says Trinity, or one in substance/essence. Clearly all you have is a nonsensical and confusing interpretation that nobody really understands. Then you say something like "Well, you can't really understand God." O.K. maybe you can't, but I understand it quite well. 

Boodada says: 
You have a carnal interpretation. You see Jesus and the Father and you think "Oh, these are two separate beings." 

SO I ask you again about Exodus 20 -- Jesus sets Himself up as THE God, so how can this be since the Father is older and superior? 

<<<Then read Hebrews where it says Jesus was tempted in all things. Does that make Jesus superior to the Father since the Father has not 
had this experience?>>> 

You said: 
How do you know what the Father has or has not experienced. Wouldn't you suffer while witnessing the suffering of your child? 

Boodada says: 
Did the Father take on flesh and live among us and have that experience? 

... 

Boodada says: 
Wrong, which is why GOD is SINGULAR here 

You said: 
If the Hebrew was meant to be singular, it would read "Eloah". 

Boodada says: 
Is this an actual word -- Eloah? 

You said: 
No it reads "Elohim" which is plural despite the singular verb. 

Boodada says: 
Elohim can be plural or singular, and if the verb is singular, 
then the context yields a singular interpretation 

Bummer for you 

...... 

Boodada says: 
Well, if there is only one God, then Jesus cannot be God by your logic. Scripture says there is ONE. Pick one. 

You said: 
Spiritually. There is ONE. The scriptures commonly use "one" in this sense and you refuse to acknowledge this fact. "They may be perfect in one." "I in them as thou are in me" "Even as we are one" 

Boodada says: 
Refuse to acknowledge WHAT? There is one God and only one God, 
not three 

Even Joseph SMith thought that at first 

You said: 
Clearly, there were twelve apostles, but they were to become "one" with Jesus even as Jesus is "one" with the Father. Christ taught it in these exact words, yet you refuse to accept it. That is your loss. 

Boodada says: 
Yeah, sure 

Sorry, but Joseph Smith should've been reading Galatians 1:8 when he had his "vision" 

Of course, his vision changed a number of times, but that probably doesn't bother you
 
  
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  From:  boodada   8/5/2003 9:55 pm  
To:  Bob (BOBKATZHOST)    (387 of 596)  
 
  628.387 in reply to 628.384  
 
You said: 
Like I said, Many have told me that The Father, Son and Holy Ghost are one God, one Being. I don't accept it. 
Boodada says: 
You should -- it is the first truth 

You said: 
My understanding is that The Father, Son and Holy Ghost are Separate and Distinct Personages. 

Boodada says: 
Separate "personages" but all part of one infinite supreme God 

You said: 
They are not one in body but they are one in purpose. Perhaps this verse will help: 

(Doctrine and Covenants 130:22.) 

22 The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man's; the Son also; but the Holy Ghost has not a body of flesh and bones, but is a personage of Spirit. Were it not so, the Holy Ghost could not dwell in us. 

Boodada says: 
The Father is Spirit 

He doesn't have a body 

That's what made Jesus so special (among other things) 

 
  
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  From:  boodada   8/5/2003 9:56 pm  
To:  lifelightway   (388 of 596)  
 
  628.388 in reply to 628.383  
 
Watch the changes in Mormon theology 
http://aomin.org/ldstheology.html
 
  
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  From:  lifelightway   8/5/2003 11:28 pm  
To:  boodada   (389 of 596)  
 
  628.389 in reply to 628.386  
 
Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God. John 20: 17 
(notice how the Father is not only the Father of Jesus and our Father, but ... Our Heavenly Father is the GOD of Jesus as well!) 

Boodada says: 
Elohim can be plural or singular, and if the verb is singular, 
then the context yields a singular interpretation 

This is found in the book, the Mormon Doctrine of Diety, which goes on for pages and pages about the plural form Elohim and how it is used with singular verbs: For example, " ...the word maim, meaning water, shamaim, meaning heaven, and panim, meaning the face or surface of a person or thing. "But," says a Christian Jewish scholar, "if we examine these words, we shall find that though apparently they may have a singular meaning, yet, in reality, they have a plural or collective one; thus, for instance, 'maim,' water, means a collection of waters, forming one collective whole; and thus again 'shamaim,' heaven, is also, in reality as well as form, of the plural number, meaning what we call in a similar way in English 'the heavens'; comprehending all the various regions which are included under that title." [Mormon Doctrine of Diety] 

So even when it says that there is no other God beside me, that still would be correct according to LDS teaching because Christ the Son, and God the Father and the Holy Spirit are one and the same in purpose, righteousness, love, wisdom, etc. and are called one God even in the Book of Mormon. That is one "Elohim" (a plural form which the Jewish scholar shows as actually meaning "a collection" - as much as water is a "collection of waters"). This helps us understand the "oneness" of God along with John 17:21-24 which you continue to ignore. 

Boodada says: 
Did the Father take on flesh and live among us and have that experience? 

Maybe. Did He have to? Does God know what you are feeling without actually being you? 

Boodada says: 
Is this an actual word -- Eloah? 

Yes. It is the singular of "Elohim". 

Boodada says: 
Refuse to acknowledge WHAT? There is one God and only one God, 
not three ... Even Joseph SMith thought that at first. 

Oh really. Care to cite your references? 

You know that the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Ghost is God. Three individuals who hold the title "God". So the use of this term "Elohim" may very well indicate any one or all three of these persons. To specify whom we are talking about, we say the Father, the Son, or the Holy Spirit depending on what we are talking about. 

<<<Of course, his vision changed a number of times, but that probably doesn't bother you.>>> 

If the explanations of his vision was exactly "memorized" then that might bother me. They don't contradict. 

You think that Joseph did it for money? fame? power? Even though mobs tore into his home in the middle of winter and beat him. Dragged him from the house and tarred and feathered him. As a result his child died from exposure. Driven from their homes and possessions stolen, houses burned, men and boys murdered. Joseph died in a prison trying to defend his brother who was with him and also was killed. 

Have you really considered that you might be wrong about this man? 

 
  
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  From:  lifelightway   8/6/2003 12:47 am  
To:  boodada   (390 of 596)  
 
  628.390 in reply to 628.388  
 
Apostle Bruce R. McConkie wrote, "Monotheism is the doctrine or belief that there is but one God. If this is properly interpreted to mean that the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost-each of whom is a separate and distinct godly personage-are one God, meaning one Godhead, then true saints are monotheists." 
Robert L. Millett, former dean of Religious Education at Brigham Young University explained, "It is true the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost are one in mind and power and glory. Indeed they are infinitely more one than they are separate, they just happen to be separate personages." There is only one God in a functional sense, and all persons who are gods function with complete harmony of will, purpose, love, and covenant. 
Pennsylvania State University's Baruch Halpern wrote, "Scholars have traditionally taken a theological and prescriptive approach to the issue of Israelite monotheism: monotheism is the conviction that only one god exists, and no others. This conviction, however, is difficult to document. ... Monotheism, Yehezkel Kaufmann observed, postulates multiple deities, subordinated to the one. ... Two elements distinguish it from polytheism: a conviction that the one controls the pantheon, and the idea of false gods." Baruch Halpern, "Monotheism," The Oxford Companion to the Bible, edited by Bruce M. Metzger and Michael D. Coogan (New York: Oxford University Press, 1993), 524-525. 
I think that website you quoted is cute, but hopeless. 
First off, "..page 186 of the original Book of Mormon" and "From these examples, it is clear that at the time the Book of Mormon was first published, ..." 
The modern Book of Mormon I have has the same wording. The members of the website try to make it sound like the Book of Mormon doesn't say that anymore. The "original" version and the one I have in my hand say the exact same thing. It hasn't changed. 
"The Father placed His name upon the Son; and Jesus Christ spoke and ministered in and through the Father's name; and so far as power, authority, and Godship are concerned His words and acts were and are those of the Father.""We read, by way of analogy, that God placed His name upon or in the Angel who was assigned to special ministry unto the people of Israel during the exodus. Of that Angel the Lord said: `Beware of him, and obey his voice, provoke him not; for he will not pardon your transgressions: for my name is in him.' (Exodus 23:21)" [Talmage, Articles of Faith, 425. 25. Ibid.] 
Shortly after the first quote they give in Mosiah, the BoM reads, "the flesh becoming subject even unto death, the will of the Son being swallowed up in the will of the Father." 
The teaching is the same. 
-Moses 4:1-2 effectively destroys the theory that Joseph Smith was a modalist in 1830. 
-John Whitmer wrote in 1831 of a vision of Joseph Smith, where he "saw the heavens opened, and the Son of Man sitting on the right hand of the Father making intercession for his brethren, the Saints." This is what Stephen saw and is recorded in the Bible similarly. 
-Records of Joseph Smith's visions (such as D&C 76:20-24) make clear that he considered the Father and Son separate persons. 
If looking at websites is how you go about finding truth ... then at least look at both sides. I have been to the Alpha Omega before and read their articles. I can give you a site too. 
http://www.fairlds.org/apol/ai053.html 

Edited 8/6/2003 6:38:13 AM ET by David (DAVIDABROWN) 



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Edited 8/7/2003 3:29:37 AM ET by LIFELIGHTWAY 
  
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  From:  Bob (BOBKATZHOST)    8/6/2003 1:35 am  
To:  boodada   (391 of 596)  
 
  628.391 in reply to 628.387  
 
I see the term God as a Title. I see the Father as a God, the Son as a God, the Holy Ghost as a God separate and Distinct. I see them working together with one Purpose as a GodHead.

The Father is Spirit wrapped in a Resurrected body of Flesh and Bone. The Son also. I see the Holy Ghost a personage of Spirit.

Bob 

  




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Edited 8/6/2003 8:18:44 AM ET by Bob (BOBKATZHOST) 
  
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  From:  clrose1   8/6/2003 6:52 am  
To:  boodada   (392 of 596)  
 
  628.392 in reply to 628.378  
 
Joseph Smith saw him alive. Tradition says he died in Ephesus, but I don't believe they ever found a body.  
  
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  From:  clrose1   8/6/2003 6:53 am  
To:  boodada   (393 of 596)  
 
  628.393 in reply to 628.379  
 
We were all born as spirit sons and daughters of God before we came to earth to recieve our physical body. 
  
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  From:  clrose1   8/6/2003 6:54 am  
To:  R/C Floats (RachelsChild)   (394 of 596)  
 
  628.394 in reply to 628.382  
 
It's not recorded in the bible. What I was referring too is that Boo already knows about the LDS teaching of John being translated. He was trying to push the discussion in that direction. 
  
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  From:  boodada   8/6/2003 7:20 am  
To:  lifelightway   (395 of 596)  
 
  628.395 in reply to 628.389  
 
You said: 
Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God. John 20: 17 
(notice how the Father is not only the Father of Jesus and our Father, but ... Our Heavenly Father is the GOD of Jesus as well!) 
Boodada says: 
Yep, that is part of Jesus' incarnation. 

Now, look what happens in Hebrews 1:8 when the Father is talking about the Son: "But about the Son he says, 'Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever, and righteousness will be the scepter of your kingdom." 

So the Father calls Jesus God and tells Him He has an eternal throne. 

Cool! 

... 

Boodada says: 
Elohim can be plural or singular, and if the verb is singular, 
then the context yields a singular interpretation 

You said: 
This is found in the book, the Mormon Doctrine of Diety, which goes on for pages and pages about the plural form Elohim and how it is used with singular verbs 

Boodada says: 
Sorry, I don't accept Mormon doctrine 

You said: 
So even when it says that there is no other God beside me, that still would be correct according to LDS teaching because Christ the Son, and God the Father and the Holy Spirit are one and the same in purpose, righteousness, love, wisdom, etc. and are called one God even in the Book of Mormon. 

Boodada says: 
If they are one God, they are one God. Not three. 

Make up your mind. 

You said: 
That is one "Elohim" (a plural form which the Jewish scholar shows as actually meaning "a collection" - as much as water is a "collection of waters"). This helps us understand the "oneness" of God along with John 17:21-24 which you continue to ignore. 

Boodada says: 
I haven't ignored anything. You're the one who cannot comprehend an infinite Godhead of three persons so you have to dismantle Him into three deities 

... 

Boodada says: 
Did the Father take on flesh and live among us and have that experience? 

You said: 
Maybe. Did He have to? Does God know what you are feeling without actually being you? 

Boodada says: 
All I'm saying is that scripture shows us that Jesus did things the Father did not do, so your argument about Jesus not knowing the time of His return doesn't work very well 

Not to mention, in His bodily form, He gave up divine perogatives. I am quite certain He knows now. 

While all the angels worship Him. (Hebrews 1:6) 

... 

You said: 
You think that Joseph did it for money? fame? power? Even though mobs tore into his home in the middle of winter and beat him. Dragged him from the house and tarred and feathered him. As a result his child died from exposure. Driven from their homes and possessions stolen, houses burned, men and boys murdered. Joseph died in a prison trying to defend his brother who was with him and also was killed. 

Have you really considered that you might be wrong about this man? 

Boodada says: 
Yes, I have. 

But he's just another false prophet from the 1800s who claimed 
angelic visitation and a new gospel. 

You know, it was a busy century for Satan 

He started Mormonism 
Jehovahs Witnesses 
Church of Jesus Christ Science 
Swedenborg Theology 
and so forth 

SO why should I believe your religion over these others? 

Can you tell me THAT?
 
  
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  From:  boodada   8/6/2003 7:22 am  
To:  lifelightway   (396 of 596)  
 
  628.396 in reply to 628.390  
 
You said: 
Records of Joseph Smith's visions (such as D&C 76:20-24) make clear that he considered the Father and Son separate persons. 
Boodada says: 
Different persons isn't disputed 

Different beings IS 

Can you tell the difference?
 
  
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  From:  boodada   8/6/2003 7:22 am  
To:  Bob (BOBKATZHOST)    (397 of 596)  
 
  628.397 in reply to 628.391  
 
You said: 
The Father is Spirit wrapped in a Resurrected body of Flesh and Bone. 
Boodada says: 
Oh really? When did the Father get resurrected?
 
  
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  From:  boodada   8/6/2003 7:23 am  
To:  clrose1   (398 of 596)  
 
  628.398 in reply to 628.392  
 
You said: 
Joseph Smith saw him alive. 
Boodada says: 
Didn't he claim to see Peter and John the Baptist alive, too? 

You said: 
Tradition says he died in Ephesus, but I don't believe they ever found a body. 

Boodada says: 
The Catholics say the same thing about Mary
 
  
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  From:  boodada   8/6/2003 7:24 am  
To:  clrose1   (399 of 596)  
 
  628.399 in reply to 628.393  
 
You said: 
We were all born as spirit sons and daughters of God before we came to earth to recieve our physical body. 
Boodada says: 
So God has flesh and bones but He makes spirit babies? 

okkayyyyy...
 
  
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   From:  Bob (BOBKATZHOST)    8/6/2003 7:33 am  
To:  boodada   (400 of 596)  
 
  628.400 in reply to 628.397  
 
Unknown in accordance with Moses 1 
Bob 

  




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Edited 8/6/2003 10:35:43 AM ET by Bob (BOBKATZHOST) 
  
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From:  boodada   8/6/2003 7:46 am  
To:  Bob (BOBKATZHOST)    (401 of 596)  
 
  628.401 in reply to 628.400  
 
You said: 
Unknown in accordance with Moses 1 
Boodada says: 
How can you believe such nonsense, Bob? 

 
  
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  From:  Bob (BOBKATZHOST)    8/6/2003 8:17 am  
To:  boodada   (402 of 596)  
 
  628.402 in reply to 628.401  
 
I believe the Truth.

How can you believe such nonsense Boo?

Bob 
 
  
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  From:  R/C Floats (RachelsChild)   8/6/2003 8:24 am  
To:  Bob (BOBKATZHOST)    (403 of 596)  
 
  628.403 in reply to 628.400  
 
Hi Bob, 

The cross postings are confusing to me. What are you referring to in Moses 1 as, "unknown", John's death and burial or god being resurrected? 

R/C 
 
  
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  From:  Bob (BOBKATZHOST)    8/6/2003 8:32 am  
To:  R/C Floats (RachelsChild)   (404 of 596)  
 
  628.404 in reply to 628.403  
 
Sorry, Boo and I have been discussing this for some time now. 

The Book of Moses is one of the Books found in the Pearl of Great Price which is one Books of Scripture used by the LDS Church. 

One of the things that it says is that God will not tell us things that have no relivance to this Earth. Boo ask who Resurrected the Father. I replied that is unknown due to the fact that it has no relivance to us on this Earth. It does not matter when, where, how the Father was Resurrected or who performed the ordanience.

Bob 

  




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Edited 8/6/2003 11:43:27 AM ET by Bob (BOBKATZHOST) 
  
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  From:  R/C Floats (RachelsChild)   8/6/2003 8:36 am  
To:  clrose1   (405 of 596)  
 
  628.405 in reply to 628.392  
 

"don't believe they ever found a body"..please explain? We all have ancestors whose burial site is unknown to us.....does that make them not dead, or translated to heaven? BTW, Moses dead body was buried by God....and no one knows where that grave is. Deut. 34:6 

R/C
 
  
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  From:  R/C Floats (RachelsChild)   8/6/2003 8:41 am  
To:  Bob (BOBKATZHOST)    (406 of 596)  
 
  628.406 in reply to 628.404  
 
Thanks Bob for the explination of who/what/where/when. I'm back in the loop. ( I think ) 

R/C
 
  
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  From:  Bob (BOBKATZHOST)    8/6/2003 8:45 am  
To:  R/C Floats (RachelsChild)   (407 of 596)  
 
  628.407 in reply to 628.406  
 
Feel free to pipe in anytime you don't understand something that I say. 

Boo writes with certain bckground known (so do I). I tend to respond in kind.

Bob 

  




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Edited 8/6/2003 11:46:33 AM ET by Bob (BOBKATZHOST) 
  
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  From:  boodada   8/6/2003 8:56 am  
To:  Bob (BOBKATZHOST)    (408 of 596)  
 
  628.408 in reply to 628.402  
 
You said: 
I believe the Truth. 
Boodada says: 
That God was a resurrected man or something blasphemous like that? 

You said: 
How can you believe such nonsense Boo? 

Boodada says: 
Can you be specific?
 
  
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  From:  Bob (BOBKATZHOST)    8/6/2003 8:59 am  
To:  boodada   (409 of 596)  
 
  628.409 in reply to 628.408  
 
Why do you believe that the Father being Resurrected is blasphemous?

Remember that Jesus was accused of blasphemy also.

Bob 

  




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Edited 8/6/2003 12:01:05 PM ET by Bob (BOBKATZHOST) 
  
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  From:  clrose1   8/6/2003 9:03 am  
To:  boodada   (410 of 596)  
 
  628.410 in reply to 628.398  
 
Of course... Peter James and John gave the priesthood authority to Joseph Smith. So did John the Baptist. 
the reason I am pointing out that a body has not been seen is because you said something about there being all kinds of proof that he died in Ephesus (well you didn't say Ephesus, but its what you meant).
 
  
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  From:  clrose1   8/6/2003 9:04 am  
To:  boodada   (411 of 596)  
 
  628.411 in reply to 628.399  
 
We don't know the process for making spirit babies... and yes, he makes spirit babies. 
  
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  From:  clrose1   8/6/2003 9:20 am  
To:  R/C Floats (RachelsChild)   (412 of 596)  
 
  628.412 in reply to 628.405  
 
I was referring to what Boo said when he said something about evidence of Johns death. 
BTW, LDS believe that Moses also was translated. It was because Moses was a translated being that he was able to give keys of the priesthood to Peter, James and John on the Mount of Transfiguration. 



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Edited 8/6/2003 12:23:30 PM ET by CLROSE1 
  
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  From:  boodada   8/6/2003 9:21 am  
To:  Bob (BOBKATZHOST)    (413 of 596)  
 
  628.413 in reply to 628.409  
 
You said: 
Why do you believe that the Father being Resurrected is blasphemous? 
Boodada says: 
Why would the Father need to be resurrected? 

 
  
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  From:  boodada   8/6/2003 9:22 am  
To:  clrose1   (414 of 596)  
 
  628.414 in reply to 628.410  
 
You said: 
Of course... Peter James and John gave the priesthood authority to Joseph Smith. So did John the Baptist. 
Boodada says: 
There is no such thing 

You've been duped 

The only priesthood is 
Melchizedek - which belongs to Christ alone 
and the royal priesthood -- which belongs to all believers 

 
  
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  From:  boodada   8/6/2003 9:22 am  
To:  clrose1   (415 of 596)  
 
  628.415 in reply to 628.411  
 
That's fine...just another illogical example 
  
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  From:  clrose1   8/6/2003 9:24 am  
To:  boodada   (416 of 596)  
 
  628.416 in reply to 628.414  
 
The priesthood of God is given to mankind through the laying on of hands as it was done in days gone by. Whether you beleive it or not. 
  
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  From:  clrose1   8/6/2003 9:25 am  
To:  boodada   (417 of 596)  
 
  628.417 in reply to 628.415  
 
I didn't say it is illogical... It is simply something we don't understand at this time. 
  
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  From:  boodada   8/6/2003 9:25 am  
To:  clrose1   (418 of 596)  
 
  628.418 in reply to 628.416  
 
Wrong 
Show me one example of a Christian priest in the NT 

 
  
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  From:  Bob (BOBKATZHOST)    8/6/2003 9:26 am  
To:  boodada   (419 of 596)  
 
  628.419 in reply to 628.413  
 
Why not?

Someplace Jesus said something like, "If you have seen me, you have seen the Father." Jesus was Resurrected. Therefore so was the Father.

Bob 

  




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Edited 8/6/2003 12:43:04 PM ET by Bob (BOBKATZHOST) 
  
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   From:  R/C Floats (RachelsChild)   8/6/2003 9:48 am  
To:  clrose1   (420 of 596)  
 
  628.420 in reply to 628.410  
 

What you are describing is necromancy. We are forbidden to commune with the dead. 

R/C
 
  
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From:  R/C Floats (RachelsChild)   8/6/2003 9:54 am  
To:  clrose1   (421 of 596)  
 
  628.421 in reply to 628.412  
 
Oh good grief, I should have guessed that. Why do you bother reading the Bible if it's unreliable? 

R/C 
 
  
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  From:  clrose1   8/6/2003 10:08 am  
To:  boodada   (422 of 596)  
 
  628.422 in reply to 628.418  
 
Did Christ give authority to His apostles or not? If a jew converted to Christianity, did he keep his priesthood? 
I don't believe everything is in the bible. 

In the LDS church an evangelist is what we call a Patriarch. This is an ordained office in the priesthood.
 
  
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  From:  clrose1   8/6/2003 10:09 am  
To:  R/C Floats (RachelsChild)   (423 of 596)  
 
  628.423 in reply to 628.420  
 
Interesting that Moses came to Peter, James and John on the Mount of Transfiguration... Do I see a double standard? 
What the problem here is, that these people are not dead. They were transfigured.
 
  
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  From:  clrose1   8/6/2003 10:13 am  
To:  R/C Floats (RachelsChild)   (424 of 596)  
 
  628.424 in reply to 628.421  
 
I don't call the bible unreliable. 
  
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  From:  R/C Floats (RachelsChild)   8/6/2003 10:30 am  
To:  clrose1   (425 of 596)  
 
  628.425 in reply to 628.423  
 
Moses and Elijah appeared and spoke with Jesus. The disciples were not included in the discussion (nor were they transfigured)..they only observed it. Matthew 17:1-13 

You are on shaky ground ( think blasphemy) by comparing Jesus transfiguration with Joseph Smith's revelation. 


The problem is this: whatever Mormon refernce you cite, it does not line up with the Bible. 

R/C 
 
  
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  From:  boodada   8/6/2003 11:01 am  
To:  Bob (BOBKATZHOST)    (426 of 596)  
 
  628.426 in reply to 628.419  
 
You said: 
Someplace Jesus said something like, "If you have seen me, you have seen the Father." Jesus was Resurrected. Therefore so was the Father. 
Boodada says: 
WHAT? 

What kind of loopy logic is that? 

Hey, Bob -- does Jesus look EXACTLY like the Father?
 
  
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  From:  R/C Floats (RachelsChild)   8/6/2003 11:01 am  
To:  clrose1   (427 of 596)  
 
  628.427 in reply to 628.424  
 
No, you didn't specifically call it unreliable, But let's not dance around the LDS position that the Bible is supposedly incomplete and full of error/contradictions. Christians ( in contrast to Mormons)believe the Bible to be the complete and finished,infaliable Word of God. 
LDS has little tolerance within it's own Mormon rank and file for those who disbelieve various portions of the Mormon scriptures. It's not acceptable to spout, " well I believe in the corrected BoM (the non 1830 version) but I don't believe all of The the D's and C's or I believe in BoM, The D's and C's but not 'The Pearl'...." etc. 

It is a double standard to use only the verses from the Bible that Joseph Smith agreed with. ( gee how convienent is that little trick) 
and then quote the other supposedly unfaliable Mormon scriptures. Take a stand on your on Mormon books and stop using the *incorrect* Bible as a crutch to prop up Mormonism. 

R/C 




 
  
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  From:  boodada   8/6/2003 11:02 am  
To:  clrose1   (428 of 596)  
 
  628.428 in reply to 628.422  
 
You said: 
Did Christ give authority to His apostles or not? 
Boodada says: 
He did not give them any authority that He doesn't extend to 
the rest of us 

There is no priestly case in Christianity 

You said: 
If a jew converted to Christianity, did he keep his priesthood? 

Boodada says: 
What priesthood? Judaism is dead, so is its priesthood 

Read the epistle to the Hebrews 

You said: 
I don't believe everything is in the bible. 

Boodada says: 
Neither do I, but I think it's important we not add to the bible. 

That's how most false groups get started -- new revelations, new teachings, etc 

 
  
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  From:  Bob (BOBKATZHOST)    8/6/2003 11:18 am  
To:  boodada   (429 of 596)  
 
  628.429 in reply to 628.426  
 
I don't know. What Exactly does Jesus look like? What Colour is His skin, His hair, His eyes? How tall is He? How much does He weigh? 
Bob 

  




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Edited 8/6/2003 2:22:14 PM ET by Bob (BOBKATZHOST) 
  
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  From:  clrose1   8/6/2003 12:17 pm  
To:  R/C Floats (RachelsChild)   (430 of 596)  
 
  628.430 in reply to 628.425  
 
I am not close to blasphemy. You tell me that Joseph Smith cannot talk with living people (that would include Jesus) because they have died. I am telling you that Jesus had Moses come along (who was dead - according to you). Why would Jesus do something that was against God? The answer is, he wouldn't... 
Transfigured people and the angels of heaven can certainly do Gods will and communicate with us. 

To simply say that LDS things do not line up with the bible is really close-minded don't you think? 
 
  
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  From:  lifelightway   8/6/2003 12:20 pm  
To:  boodada   (431 of 596)  
 
  628.431 in reply to 628.395  
 
You are a slippery one aren't you. You just take one argument or verse, make a snide remark about it and ignore the rest. That's fine if you think it helps your case. I don't think it does though. 
The Lord will send a famine of hearing the words of the Lord, Amos 8: 11. The people were removed to another gospel so soon that Paul marveled. Gal. 1: 6. The church would not endure sound doctrine 2 Tim. 4: 3-4. Some men said they were Apostles and were not, Rev. 2: 2. 

Boodada says: 
The rock is Christ, or some say, the confession of Peter. Either 
way, Christ is the head of the church. 

I never claimed Christ wasn't the head. In fact, that is exactly what I claimed. It is Christ and the way Peter knew the truth about him. Not by flesh and blood, but from the Father by the Spirit. 

I wonder what you think when we are asked to be a church with one heart and one mind. 

Boodada says: 
I understand what it means. 

Good. Now apply it. It being "one" is used all over in scripture and the only time YOU take it literally is when it supports your dogma. 

I said: 
Yet, what you don't understand is that they are one in spirit, not one in substance or essence. 

Boodada says: 
What is the difference? 

The difference is that the scriptures say nothing about Trinity, or being one in essence or substance. This is all extra-biblical Mr. Sola Scriptura. 

Boodada says: 
SO then Christ cannot be the true God, since Jesus said there is only one. If Jesus is an inferior God, then He isn't the true God ergo He is a false God 

John 14: 28 
Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for MY FATHER IS GREATER THAN I. [emphasis mine] 

Boodada says: 
If they are one God, they are one God. Not three. Make up your mind. 

Christ made it up for me when He explained it here: John 17:21-24 

You said: 
Heaven does not come to pass until after the Millenium. 

Boodada says: 
Scripture, please 

Revelation of John explains the whole thing. Christ reigns for 1,000 years before the creation and its purposes are complete. Do some study about "Hades". It is the spirit world and consists of both paradise and spirit prison. Neither of which are actually heaven. 

Boodada says: 
Jesus didn't need to be water baptized, He did it to fulfill all righteousness, and since it is a work of righteousness, it does not save us (Titus 3:5-6) 

John 3: 5 
Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 

It in and of itself does not save us. But like you said, Jesus did it to fulfill all righteousness. If Jesus needed baptism, how much more need do we have to be baptized? Jesus said that we must be born of water AND of the spirit in order to go enter the kingdom of God. Baptism AND the Holy Spirit. Plain and Simple. 

Boodada: 
SO why should I believe your religion over these others? Can you tell me THAT? 

Sure. An honest study of our actual beliefs, not from rabid anti-Mormon web sites. That along with sincere prayer to Heavenly Father. Nobody can "convince" anyone else of the truth except God. 

Boodada says: 
They keys were not lost -- Jesus has them safe and secure in 
Revelation 

Do you even believe in Revelation? How has God always revealed his truths in the past? Prophets. Do you believe there will be no more true prophets? Do you think people will reject those prophets? 

Look at my post 298 and 300 on this thread. While you are there, you may notice that 295 was deleted. Curious? It probably contained some truth that the hosts didn't want on their "spotless" fora. 


 
  
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  From:  clrose1   8/6/2003 12:21 pm  
To:  R/C Floats (RachelsChild)   (432 of 596)  
 
  628.432 in reply to 628.427  
 
The LDS church does not believe the bible is "full of errors, and contradictions". What you are referring too, is the article of faith that says we believe the bible as far as it is translated correctly. This does not say that it is full of errors and contradictions... It simply says that man may have made some errors when translating it. 
The Book of Mormon has in the front of it that if there are errors, they are errors of men. So, in essence you are believing something that ain't quite true. 

LDS believe in all the scriptures... The Bible, BOM, D&C, PofGP. We also believe we have a living prophet of God on the earth. 

LDS do not use only parts of the bible that Joseph Smith agreed with. We use the whole bible (KJV is most widely used in the LDS church) and study from it on a regular basis.
 
  
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  From:  clrose1   8/6/2003 12:22 pm  
To:  boodada   (433 of 596)  
 
  628.433 in reply to 628.428  
 
You should say that it is important that man not get mans ideas into the scriptures.  
  
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  From:  R/C Floats (RachelsChild)   8/6/2003 12:35 pm  
To:  Bob (BOBKATZHOST)    (434 of 596)  
 
  628.434 in reply to 628.429  
 
Hi Bob, 

His hair is white, like wool, and his eyes orange, like a flame of fire and his countenance like the sun.( Rev.1:11-18) (weight and height not recorded.) 
During His time on earth He most likely looked like His mom, Mary. 

R/C 



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Edited 8/6/2003 3:41:23 PM ET by R/C Floats (RACHELSCHILD) 
  
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  From:  Bob (BOBKATZHOST)    8/6/2003 12:53 pm  
To:  R/C Floats (RachelsChild)   (435 of 596)  
 
  628.435 in reply to 628.434  
 
V13 says that this one was like unto the Son of God. It was not the Son of God
Bob 

 

 
  
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  From:  boodada   8/6/2003 1:02 pm  
To:  Bob (BOBKATZHOST)    (436 of 596)  
 
  628.436 in reply to 628.429  
 
You said: 
I don't know. What Exactly does Jesus look like? What Colour is His skin, His hair, His eyes? How tall is He? How much does He weigh? 
Boodada says: 
Irrelevant 

Are you suggesting He doesn't look exactly like His Father? 

Well? 

 
  
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  From:  boodada   8/6/2003 1:09 pm  
To:  lifelightway   (437 of 596)  
 
  628.437 in reply to 628.431  
 
You said: 
You are a slippery one aren't you. 
Boodada says: 
No, not really. Who are you, by the way? 

You said: 
You just take one argument or verse, make a snide remark about it and ignore the rest. That's fine if you think it helps your case. I don't think it does though. 

Boodada says: 
I don't think you would be convinced regardless of how eloquent my arguments may or may not be 

You said: 
The Lord will send a famine of hearing the words of the Lord, Amos 8: 11. 

Boodada says: 
If you're going to exegete scripture, then you better be prepared to do it all the way through. 

Notice what happens in the next chapter. Hmmm...what chapter from Amos did the apostle quote from in Acts 15 during the discussion about circumcision? 

So obviously this has occurred by the time the Christian church gets started. 

Sorry for you. 

You said: 
The people were removed to another gospel so soon that Paul marveled. Gal. 1: 6. 

Boodada says: 
Salvation of faith + works. 

Perhaps you've heard of it. I believe it is quite Mormoney 

You said: 
The church would not endure sound doctrine 2 Tim. 4: 3-4. 

Boodada says: 
Funny how you claim I ignore scripture and so forth and this is at least the second time you've revised what it says (not counting the misapplications) 

Let's look at it - "For the time will come when MEN will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths." 

Now, where do you see that the church will not endure sound doctrine? 

You said: 
Some men said they were Apostles and were not, Rev. 2: 2. 

Boodada says: 
The ones that were stuck with the group 

As opposed to Smith who is told to forsake all religions and come up with a new one
 
  
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  From:  boodada   8/6/2003 1:20 pm  
To:  lifelightway   (438 of 596)  
 
  628.438 in reply to 628.431  
 
Boodada says: 
What is the difference? 
You said: 
The difference is that the scriptures say nothing about Trinity, or being one in essence or substance. This is all extra-biblical Mr. Sola Scriptura. 

Boodada says: 
Trinity is an extra-biblical word used to convey the truth in scripture 

Don't knock sola scriptura, it has prevented many a false movement from starting. Unfortunately we still have yours and some others to contend with because you don't believe Jesus taught the apostles the gospel completely 

Even though scripture says the faith has been deposited 

... 

Boodada says: 
SO then Christ cannot be the true God, since Jesus said there is only one. If Jesus is an inferior God, then He isn't the true God ergo He is a false God 

You said: 
John 14: 28 
Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for MY FATHER IS GREATER THAN I. [emphasis mine] 

Boodada says: 
Philippians 2 explains this. Jesus willingly took a position where He was subject to the Father. That's a difference in function, not nature 

The same chapter tells us that He is the nature of God, just as we learn this in Hebrews 1 

Now, if you wish to say, oh, Jesus is inferior and He is not God almighty, go ahead -- you just made Jesus a false God since the bible says only one is true 

.... 

You said: 
Heaven does not come to pass until after the Millenium. 

Boodada says: 
Scripture, please 

You said: 
Revelation of John explains the whole thing. Christ reigns for 1,000 years before the creation and its purposes are complete. 

Boodada says: 
Really? So the saints in heaven that make up the great multitude in chapter 19 -- one chapter before the 1000 year reign -- I guess that's just to be ignored, huh? 

You said: 
Do some study about "Hades". It is the spirit world and consists of both paradise and spirit prison. Neither of which are actually heaven. 

Boodada says: 
Do some research on "Tartarus" and you'll see people are either in 
heaven or hell, and the only spirit prison is for fallen angels that have been put into the abyss 

..... 

Boodada says: 
Jesus didn't need to be water baptized, He did it to fulfill all righteousness, and since it is a work of righteousness, it does not save us (Titus 3:5-6) 

You said: 
John 3: 5 
Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 

Boodada says: 
Where is the word baptize in this sentence? 

You said: 
It in and of itself does not save us. But like you said, Jesus did it to fulfill all righteousness. If Jesus needed baptism, how much more need do we have to be baptized? Jesus said that we must be born of water AND of the spirit in order to go enter the kingdom of God. Baptism AND the Holy Spirit. Plain and Simple. 

Boodada says: 
Wrong 

Born of water = flesh birth 
Born of Spirit = spiritual birth 

.... 

Boodada: 
SO why should I believe your religion over these others? Can you tell me THAT? 

You said: 
Sure. An honest study of our actual beliefs, not from rabid anti-Mormon web sites. That along with sincere prayer to Heavenly Father. Nobody can "convince" anyone else of the truth except God. 

Boodada says: 
Well, God says you're wrong, and I've prayed about this for a long time. 

.... 

Boodada says: 
They keys were not lost -- Jesus has them safe and secure in 
Revelation 

You said: 
Do you even believe in Revelation? How has God always revealed his truths in the past? Prophets. Do you believe there will be no more true prophets? Do you think people will reject those prophets? 

Boodada says: 
What prophets will we need? The faith was deposited to the saints. 

Now, 1 Cor 13 says " but if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be done away. For we know in part and we prophesy in part; but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away." 

Perfect refers to complete 

And what was completed some time after Paul wrote this? 

The New Testament. 

Hey, look out the window -- your prophet theory is flying away 

Besides, Joseph Smith's prophecies failed enough times to condemn him many times according to the Deuteronomy test 

You said: 
Look at my post 298 and 300 on this thread. While you are there, you may notice that 295 was deleted. Curious? It probably contained some truth that the hosts didn't want on their "spotless" fora. 

Boodada says: 
Why do you say probably? Don't you know what you wrote? 

If they did delete it, why aren't you complaining??? [to them, not me]
 
  
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  From:  R/C Floats (RachelsChild)   8/6/2003 1:24 pm  
To:  Bob (BOBKATZHOST)    (439 of 596)  
 
  628.439 in reply to 628.435  
 

Bob, 
Come on, that is weeny objection....who else could this be but Jesus? Who is the Alpha and Omega,holds the keys to Hades and Death...who was dead, and is alive forevermore. Who is this that John fell down and worshipped at the feet of? 

R/C 

 
  
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   From:  Bob (BOBKATZHOST)    8/6/2003 1:24 pm  
To:  boodada   (440 of 596)  
 
  628.440 in reply to 628.436  
 
Not at all. Scripture indicates that He did. 
Bob 

  




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Edited 8/6/2003 4:31:03 PM ET by Bob (BOBKATZHOST) 
  
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From:  Bob (BOBKATZHOST)    8/6/2003 1:26 pm  
To:  R/C Floats (RachelsChild)   (441 of 596)  
 
  628.441 in reply to 628.439  
 
John certainly knew the Saviour. Why wold He say "Like unto" rather than "He saw Jesus"? 
Bob 

  




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Edited 8/6/2003 4:31:28 PM ET by Bob (BOBKATZHOST) 
  
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  From:  boodada   8/6/2003 1:28 pm  
To:  Bob (BOBKATZHOST)    (442 of 596)  
 
  628.442 in reply to 628.440  
 
So according to you Jesus looks EXACTLY like His father 
Are we clear on this?
 
  
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  From:  Bob (BOBKATZHOST)    8/6/2003 1:32 pm  
To:  boodada   (443 of 596)  
 
  628.443 in reply to 628.442  
 
That is what Scripture seems to indicate. I am unsure Whether HE did or not. 
Bob 

  




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Edited 8/6/2003 4:32:43 PM ET by Bob (BOBKATZHOST) 
  
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  From:  boodada   8/6/2003 1:33 pm  
To:  Bob (BOBKATZHOST)    (444 of 596)  
 
  628.444 in reply to 628.443  
 
Well, Lifeway said something about Elohim who I guess is supposed to be God is actually older than Yahweh who is supposed to be Jesus 
Right?
 
  
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  From:  Bob (BOBKATZHOST)    8/6/2003 1:57 pm  
To:  boodada   (445 of 596)  
 
  628.445 in reply to 628.444  
 
It is my understanding that Eloheim is the Father and the four letter name that has been corrupted into Jehovah is the Son.

I wonder how much age plays a part in a Resurrected Being. At what age are you Resurrected to? At the age and condition of Death? I hope not. I prefer to think that one is Resurrected to your best self.

So the Father may be much older than the Son but that may not matter.

Bob 

 

 
  
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  From:  lifelightway   8/6/2003 2:20 pm  
To:  R/C Floats (RachelsChild)   (446 of 596)  
 
  628.446 in reply to 628.434  
 
<<<During His time on earth He most likely looked like His mom, Mary.>>> 
Hebrews says he looks just like his Father. 
"Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;" [Heb. 1: 3] 

Stephen saw God the Father in a vision where Jesus was standing at His right hand. Moses spoke to the Lord face to face "as a Man speaketh unto his friend." If you want to know what it is like to talk to God, the Bible compares it to speaking to your friend. 

Ezek. 1: 26 "And above the firmament that was over their heads was the likeness of a throne, as the appearance of a sapphire stone: and upon the likeness of the throne was the likeness as the appearance of a man above upon it." 

Notice that it didn't say God was a man, but had the "likeness" and "appearance of a man". Hebrews says the "express image" of his Father's person. What is an image and a person? 

Look where else "image" is used ...And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, after his image; and called his name Seth: Gen. 5: 3 

Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: Ex. 20: 4 

There is no distinction made between the "image" of Seth and Adam compared to the "image" in which man is made. How do you make a "graven image or any likeness" of something that isn't tangeable. 

Let US make man in OUR IMAGE and after OUR LIKENESS. 

 
  
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  From:  R/C Floats (RachelsChild)   8/6/2003 2:23 pm  
To:  Bob (BOBKATZHOST)    (447 of 596)  
 
  628.447 in reply to 628.441  
 
Bob, 

Because the last time John saw Jesus, Jesus was on earth....now Jesus is in Heaven. ( no more restaints of an earthly body ) Do you think when we go into eternity we'll have the exact same earthly body we have now? How would that work? Anyway, John said "like unto" to describe the altered earthy appearance now encased in Jesus heavenly body. 

If it is not Jesus, (as you believe), then who is he or it? 

R/C
 
  
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  From:  clrose1   8/6/2003 2:40 pm  
To:  R/C Floats (RachelsChild)   (448 of 596)  
 
  628.448 in reply to 628.447  
 
Our body now has blood. After the resurrection we will not have blood. This is also true of Jesus. He is resurrected and has a body of flesh and bone. this body is perfected. In Jesus case the imprints of the nails were left so we can know who He is, and indeed this was proof to Thomas. 
  
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  From:  R/C Floats (RachelsChild)   8/6/2003 2:59 pm  
To:  lifelightway   (449 of 596)  
 
  628.449 in reply to 628.446  
 
This Hebrew verse is speaking of Jesus appearance in heaven. A corruptible body cannot live in heaven! 1 Cor.15: 35-54 How could Jesus look just like the Father in heaven while on earth? What would that look like? 

We've already discussed, *No man can see God and live.* 

In the Bible Jesus repeatedly instructed us on prayer and how to do it. Matthew 6: 5-14 is a good example. 

Ez.1:16 have no clue of your point. What is your definition of the "likeness" of a throne? 

Gen.5:3 EXODUS 20:4, again what you're trying to connect is lacking in continuity and clarity. As such I can't comment on it, it makes no sense to me. 

R/C 

edited by R/C for spelling error 




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Edited 8/6/2003 8:06:43 PM ET by R/C Floats (RACHELSCHILD) 
  
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  From:  R/C Floats (RachelsChild)   8/6/2003 5:39 pm  
To:  clrose1   (450 of 596)  
 
  628.450 in reply to 628.432  
 
LDS believers have repeatedly posted on this Forum of the Bible contradicting itself,not being the complete word of God and being mistranslated. 

Christians do not accept Mormon writings as the word of God....nor do we believe in prophets now living on earth. ( but in a future time two will) as written in Revelation. 

I have no problem using the KJV....I memeorized many verses from it in my youth. For the last several years though I prefer to use the NKJV so I don't have to wade through the: "thees,thou,ye,sayest, seekeths etc. 

R/C 
 
  
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  From:  boodada   8/6/2003 6:42 pm  
To:  Bob (BOBKATZHOST)    (451 of 596)  
 
  628.451 in reply to 628.445  
 
You said: 
It is my understanding that Eloheim is the Father and the four letter name that has been corrupted into Jehovah is the Son. 
Boodada says: 
Wow, that's a bible blunder if I ever heard one 

Jesus is not Jehovah, Bob. He's never called Jehovah 

You said: 
I wonder how much age plays a part in a Resurrected Being. At what age are you Resurrected to? At the age and condition of Death? I hope not. I prefer to think that one is Resurrected to your best self. 

Boodada says: 
So if the Father was resurrected, does He have nail holes? 

You said: 
So the Father may be much older than the Son but that may not matter. 

Boodada says: 
How can the Father be older than the Son if neither were created?
 
  
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  From:  Bob (BOBKATZHOST)    8/6/2003 6:51 pm  
To:  R/C Floats (RachelsChild)   (452 of 596)  
 
  628.452 in reply to 628.447  
 
I believe that a Resurrected body looks very much like an Mortal, earthly body but has been perfected. I hope it is not like we died but our best self at our best age (with a full head of hair, yeaaaaaaa). The Apostles did not describe Jesus as John did when he walked the Earth after His Resurrection. John described what he saw in vision which is not necessarily reality. Joseph Smith did not describe the resurrected beings that visited him in such terms, neither did the apostles at the Transfiguration. 

I don't know who visited John in his record in Revelations. I suspect it was an Angel delivering a message from the Father.

Bob 

  




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Edited 8/6/2003 9:56:58 PM ET by Bob (BOBKATZHOST) 
  
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  From:  Bob (BOBKATZHOST)    8/6/2003 6:56 pm  
To:  boodada   (453 of 596)  
 
  628.453 in reply to 628.451  
 
Jesus may not be called the four letters inthe Bible but that is no indication that it is not so. Adam is not called Michael in the Bible, yet he is.

The Father may well have nail holes but I suspect that Jesus having them is a special case to show the Apostles who He is.

Back to Moses 1. The Father was not created as far as we know. I believe that Jesus was created by the Father just as we were created by the Father. He is, after all, our Elder Brother.

Bob 

  




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Edited 8/6/2003 9:57:15 PM ET by Bob (BOBKATZHOST) 
  
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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    8/6/2003 6:57 pm  
To:  Bob (BOBKATZHOST)    (454 of 596)  
 
  628.454 in reply to 628.407  
 
Bob,

 

Here is the Biblical account of the virgin conception of Jesus.

 

Matthew 1:20 .. But while he (Joseph) thought on these things (Marys pregnancy), behold the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary they wife; for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.

 

Luke 1:34,35 Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man? And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that Holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

 

In both accounts it is the Holy Spirit that is accredited with the virgin conception of Jesus if there are three separate Gods as the Mormons are claiming than you would have to correctly state that Jesus is the Son of the Holy Ghost and not the Son of the Father and this indeed is another Gigantic Mormon Error and Misrepresentation of true Christianity.

 

You and the other Mormons need to think through what you are posting and promoting as it makes no sense!

 

David



David A. Brown
Basic Christian: Forum
www.BasicChristian.org

 
  
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  From:  boodada   8/6/2003 7:04 pm  
To:  Bob (BOBKATZHOST)    (455 of 596)  
 
  628.455 in reply to 628.453  
 
You said: 
Jesus may not be called the four letters inthe Bible but that is no indication that it is not so. 
Boodada says: 
Is this the standard argument in LDS? If it's not explicitly written against, it's true? 

You said: 
Adam is not called Michael in the Bible, yet he is. 

Boodada says: 
No, Bob, he is not. Adam was never an angel. Angels are not like 
people. 

Perhaps you can tell me why the bible says we will judge angels if this is true 

You said: 
The Father may well have nail holes but I suspect that Jesus having them is a special case to show the Apostles who He is. 

Boodada says: 
So the Father may have been crucified too? 

You said: 
Back to Moses 1. The Father was not created as far as we know. I believe that Jesus was created by the Father just as we were created by the Father. He is, after all, our Elder Brother. 

Boodada says: 
So Jesus was created at some point, and didn't always exist?
 
  
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  From:  Bob (BOBKATZHOST)    8/6/2003 7:12 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (456 of 596)  
 
  628.456 in reply to 628.454  
 
As I have said, the actual mechnism for getting Mary Pregnant is unknown. 

It is interesting to note that Matt 1 says "Conceived OF the Holy Ghost", not "Conceived BY the Holy Ghost". It is also interesting to note that Begot, Begotten, Holy Ghost and Holy Spirit never appear in the same verse in the Bible. However the word Begot, Begotten and Father appear at least 6 times within the Bible. Therefore, The Bible teaches that Jesus was Begotten of the Father through the means of the Holy Ghost.

Ref: "Let no man decieve you" Bruce Richardson p198

Bob 
 
  
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  From:  Bob (BOBKATZHOST)    8/6/2003 7:21 pm  
To:  boodada   (457 of 596)  
 
  628.457 in reply to 628.455  
 
No it is not a standard LDS arguement. It is merely logical to not make unfounded assumptions. Just because the Bible does not say something does not make it automatically false. You are not mentioned int he Bible yet you exist. 

How do you know that Adam was never an Angel? D&C 27:11, 107:54 and 128:21 all say that Adam is Michael. This is re-enforced in the Temple. Mark E Peterson wrote a book covering this Topic "Adam. Who is he?"

The Father may well have been crucified. We don't know. We are getting into speculation here.

Bob 
 
  
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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    8/6/2003 7:37 pm  
To:  Bob (BOBKATZHOST)    (458 of 596)  
 
  628.458 in reply to 628.456  
 
Well then that Completely rules out what Mormons are teaching because if they all have physical bodies than only one of them is the Father.

 

It is also interesting that the Bible says that Jesus has always existed.

 

And in Jesus case He remembers His pre-incarnation existence, unlike the Mormons who do not.

 

John 17:5 And now O, Father, Glorify thou Me with thine Own Self with the Glory which I had with thee before the world was.

 

David



David A. Brown
Basic Christian: Forum
www.BasicChristian.org

 
  
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  From:  R/C Floats (RachelsChild)   8/6/2003 7:49 pm  
To:  Bob (BOBKATZHOST)    (459 of 596)  
 
  628.459 in reply to 628.452  
 

Well, I don't know exactly what resurrected bodies will look like either! But Psalm 17:15 says: 
" As for me I will see Your face in righteousness; I shall be satisfied when I awake in Your likeness." 
And as it is getting late here on the East Coast, that is a comforting word to go to sleep on. 

I have thought about the timing of the Transfiguration, it was before Jesus was crucified and died.The Transfiguration could not be Jesus' resurrection body as He had had not been crucified yet. Translations, the Transfiguration, The Ressurection are not interchangeable, they have seperate and distinct functions. So I do disagree with your comparing what the apostles saw (a transfiguration) to what Joseph Smith saw. 

It's a real stretch of the Rev.1 text to "suspect" this likeness of the "One like the Son of Man', could possible be an angel ( the Alpha and Omega angel?) ....But I'm too tired at the moment, to discuss it further BUT there is tomorrow...(maybe that is) if I don't die, or Jesus doesn't return tonight, I'll be back. Be thinking! 

G'night 

R/C 

edited by R/C for really poor sentence struture! 



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Edited 8/7/2003 1:19:34 PM ET by R/C Floats (RACHELSCHILD) 
  
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   From:  Bob (BOBKATZHOST)    8/6/2003 7:54 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (460 of 596)  
 
  628.460 in reply to 628.458  
 
Quite right, The Father, Son and Holy Ghost are three separate and distinct personages. All three have bodies, The Father and Son have bodies of Flesh and Bone. The Holy Ghost has a Spiritual Body.

It is interesting that your quote from John does not say that Jesus always existed. He was Spiritually created before the Earth was created (as were we all). 

Bob 
 
  
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 From:  Bob (BOBKATZHOST)    8/6/2003 8:00 pm  
To:  R/C Floats (RachelsChild)   (461 of 596)  
 
  628.461 in reply to 628.459  
 
Out here on the West Coast I just finished watching Millionaire. 

Remember that we were all created in the likeness of God back in Genesis. I suspect your verse from Pslams is referring to this rather that we will all look exactly like the Father. 

I don't see why the Transfiguration does not compare to what Joseph Smith experienced. Perhaps you could explain further. 

Have a good night's sleep. I have a phone interview tomorrow morning but should be relitively available after that. It is also a new week at School so tomorrow will be a busy day.

Bob 
 
  
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  From:  lifelightway   8/6/2003 9:08 pm  
To:  R/C Floats (RachelsChild)   (462 of 596)  
 
  628.462 in reply to 628.449  
 
<<<This Hebrew verse is speaking of Jesus appearance in heaven. A corruptible body cannot live in heaven! 1 Cor.15: 35-54>>> 
I never said a corruptible body could live in Heaven. There is a difference between a mortal body and a resurrected, glorified, immortal, and perfected body. 

<<<We've already discussed, *No man can see God and live.*>>> 

Yet men are TRANSFIGURED, then they can see God and live. Moses saw the Lord face to face as a man speaks unto his friend. Only when the Holy Spirit is upon us may we see God the Father. 

I posted already other verses where this is recorded in the Bible. 

<<<Gen.5:3 EXODUS 20:4, again what you're trying to connect is lacking in continuity and clarity. As such I can't comment on it, it makes no sense to me>>> 

It is the use and definition of "image" and "likeness". These are the words used here. If you go to strong's concordance, you will see that "image" means two eyes, two arms, two legs, body etc. When the people are told not to make any "graven image", this expresses that meaning in a context that we can understand. 

-Stephen
 
  
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  From:  lifelightway   8/6/2003 9:41 pm  
To:  boodada   (463 of 596)  
 
  628.463 in reply to 628.437  
 
<<<Notice what happens in the next chapter. Hmmm...what chapter from Amos did the apostle quote from in Acts 15 during the discussion about circumcision?>>> 
Is that supposed to prove something? 

Boodada says: 
Salvation of faith + works. Perhaps you've heard of it. I believe it is quite Mormoney 

Simply giving God lip service does not constitute faith. Faith alone only saves in the sense that FAITH IS NEVER ALONE. Paul himself taught about the importance of works. As did Old Testament Prophets. More importantly, so did the Savior. 

You can give me a total of 4 passages maybe that don't even genuinely stand up against the LDS position of grace, faith, and works. Then I will give you 25 that hold up our position. We know that we are saved by grace, because every man has fallen short. That is no excuse to continue living in sin. Repentance and Faith itself ARE works. 

<<<As opposed to Smith who is told to forsake all religions and come up with a new one>>> 

You know, if Joseph Smith wanted to really get a huge following for his own evil purposes, then he could have just went along with the traditional beliefs that everyone else held at the time. Instead he went through severe persecution up to his death. 

 
  
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  From:  boodada   8/6/2003 9:49 pm  
To:  lifelightway   (464 of 596)  
 
  628.464 in reply to 628.463  
 
<<<Notice what happens in the next chapter. Hmmm...what chapter from Amos did the apostle quote from in Acts 15 during the discussion about circumcision?>>> 
You said: 
Is that supposed to prove something? 

Boodada says: 
Wow, that went right over your head, didn't it? 

Maybe you should go back and re-read everything I wrote and see if you get it now. 

... 

Boodada says: 
Salvation of faith + works. Perhaps you've heard of it. I believe it is quite Mormoney 

You said: 
Simply giving God lip service does not constitute faith. Faith alone only saves in the sense that FAITH IS NEVER ALONE. Paul himself taught about the importance of works. As did Old Testament Prophets. More importantly, so did the Savior. 

Boodada says: 
No kidding, bubba. Works come from salvation. 

But even your righteous works won't get you saved (Titus 3:5-6) 

It's simple 

Faith in Christ = Saved 
No faith in Christ = Unsaved 

Then you are judged for your works -- the saved go to the judgment seat of Christ, and the unsaved go to the Great White Throne 

You said: 
You can give me a total of 4 passages maybe that don't even genuinely stand up against the LDS position of grace, faith, and works. Then I will give you 25 that hold up our position. We know that we are saved by grace, because every man has fallen short. That is no excuse to continue living in sin. Repentance and Faith itself ARE works. 

Boodada says: 
Keep doing good works in Christ, but they don't add to or take away salvation 

<<<As opposed to Smith who is told to forsake all religions and come up with a new one>>> 

You said: 
You know, if Joseph Smith wanted to really get a huge following for his own evil purposes, then he could have just went along with the traditional beliefs that everyone else held at the time. 

Boodada says: 
Like Koresh and Jim Jones 

No, traditional beliefs are boring. But make a new cult and people kinda go nuts for it, because then they start focusing more on YOU rather than the message 

And that's what Smith wanted 

And he bragged about himself, didn't he, that he did more than even Jesus did to hold the church together 

You said: 
Instead he went through severe persecution up to his death. 

Boodada says: 
Was this religious persecution? 

I'd hardly call stepping on someone's free speech and destroying property RP 

 
  
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  From:  lifelightway   8/6/2003 10:43 pm  
To:  boodada   (465 of 596)  
 
  628.465 in reply to 628.438  
 
Boodada says: 
Trinity is an extra-biblical word used to convey the truth in scripture 
It is used to convey AN INTERPRETATION of scripture. Look into the history and you will find heated debate over the subject. God did not reveal this "essence" or "substance" or "Trinity" concept. God always had his chosen to reveal truth and teach. Not a group of politicians, philosophers, and bishops who debate in order to try and find truth. 

We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts: Knowing this first, that NO PROPHESY OF SCRIPTURE IS OF ANY PRIVATE INTERPRETATION. For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost. [1peter19-21] 

<<<Don't knock sola scriptura, it has prevented many a false movement from starting. Unfortunately we still have yours and some others to contend with because you don't believe Jesus taught the apostles the gospel completely.>>> 

I cannot knock what does not exist. Interpretation is why there are thousands of denominations instead of one true faith. Jesus taught the apostles well, but unfortunately all we have are scattered letters and stories that men compiled together. We don't have all that was taught and the Bible indicates this in several ways. I think those who compiled the Bible did a wonderful job, but I welcome more of God's word when it is revealed. He has given more of His word to us for our own benefit. He hasn't left us hangin'. 

Boodada says : 
Born of water = flesh birth 
Born of Spirit = spiritual birth 

What? Are you really contending that Jesus was not speaking of baptism in John 3:5? That the water is not the water of baptism? As soon as Jesus finished speaking look at what happened: 

22 After these things came Jesus and his disciples into the land of Judaea; and there he tarried with them, and baptized. 

23 And John also was baptizing in Aenon near to Salim, because there was much WATER there: and they came, and were baptized. 

See also: Acts 2: 38 Repent, and be baptized every one of you. 
Acts 10: 48 commanded them to be baptized. 

Do the children of Israel need to be baptized? In the N.T. Paul speaks of the children of Israel being baptized by Moses in the cloud and in the sea (1 Cor. 10: 1-4). 

When Jesus sent the twelve apostles to teach the gospel he told them that whosoever believed and was baptized would be saved; and whosoever did not believe would be damned (Mark 16: 16). It does not say "believe OR be baptized" it says "believe AND be baptized". Where does it say in the Bible that people who have not been baptized WILL enter the kingdom of heaven? According to your "sola scriptura" logic, they cannot. 1 Pet. 3: 21 BAPTISM DOTH ALSO NOW SAVE US. 

1 Cor 13 " but if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be done away. For we know in part and we prophesy in part; but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away." 

<<<Boodada: Perfect refers to complete. And what was completed some time after Paul wrote this? The New Testament.>>> 

*** This "perfect" is obviously not the New Testament. Clearly there is to be more prophets and revelation after ... Revelation... I suppose these two witnesses are a "special exception" to this so-called "end of prophecy." that this verse supposedly purposes.*** 

Rev. 11: 3 my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy. 

{*Side note: notice that this next passage was a prophecy of Joel. Now if Joel prophesied about the sacrifice of Christ in the next chapter, does that mean that this isn't talking about the last days when clearly it is. Just so you know how ridiculous that argument is when you tried to apply it to Amos.} 

Anyway, back to your unfounded and unbiblical interpretation that there will be no more prophesying after the New Testament. 

Acts 2:16 
But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; 17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: 18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy: 

Do yourself a favor ... "Despise not prophesyings." 1 Thes. 5: 20 

Boodada says: 
Why do you say probably? Don't you know what you wrote? 

Not really. Posts just tend to disappear. That one may have been Bob's because mine are still there. But mine have been deleted as well at times and an entire thread about the philisophical problems with traditional (and an extra-Biblical interpretation of) Christianity was deleted too. 

It pretty much dealt with the kind of false teaching found in the current "Predestined to be like Him" thread. "Ex-Nihilo" which is another extra-biblical teaching, has certain philisophical problems attached. Again, traditions of men. 

xxxx 







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Edited 8/7/2003 3:47:43 AM ET by LIFELIGHTWAY 

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Edited 8/7/2003 3:11:34 PM ET by David (DAVIDABROWN) 
  
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  From:  lifelightway   8/6/2003 11:41 pm  
To:  boodada   (466 of 596)  
 
  628.466 in reply to 628.464  
 
Boodada says: 
No kidding, bubba. Works come from salvation. 
I say: And you realize that Faith, Works, and Salvation are inseperable, so why the wise crack? 

<<<But even your righteous works won't get you saved (Titus 3:5-6)>>> 

I never said they would. Straw man. 

Boodada says: 
No, traditional beliefs are boring. But make a new cult and people kinda go nuts for it, because then they start focusing more on YOU rather than the message. And that's what Smith wanted. 

People went nuts alright. They killed our people, ran them from their homes and stole their property, while burning what remained. You were right that Satan was busy at the time. Quite right indeed. 

<<<And he bragged about himself, didn't he, that he did more than even Jesus did to hold the church together.>>> 

No he didn't. Your sources show the misrepresentation. Read Joseph's actual speech, the whole speech. Not just a chopped up version of it along with biased commentary. You have been duped again. You can read up on exactly how you have been duped here and is dealt with as the last of three quotes taken out of context: 

http://www.fairlds.org/apol/onug/pg171a.html 

Like I said, you should look at both sides of every issue before you swallow what has been fed to you. You may end up looking silly otherwise. 

While searching for this information, I found an excellent pdf file about God having an anthropomorphic body which uses several non-LDS sources. Enjoy! 

http://www.fairlds.org/pubs/GodHaveBody.pdf 





--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Edited 8/7/2003 3:00:49 AM ET by LIFELIGHTWAY 
  
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  From:  lifelightway   8/7/2003 12:42 am  
To:  boodada   (467 of 596)  
 
  628.467 in reply to 628.464  
 
My links are being deleted by the host. Which is quite unfair (as usual) because your link remains. 
This is found on the Foundation for Apologetic Information & Research (FAIR) website concerning the new popular anti-mormon work that is filled with similar deceptions. Almost very tract or argument you can find on the net is easily refuted on this site. This isn't how LDS go about finding truth, but we feel that we can defend our beliefs using scholarship and can do it quite well considering that the church is true. 

Boodada: And he bragged about himself, didn't he, that he did more than even Jesus did to hold the church together. 

"I have more to boast of than ever any man had.... I boast that no man ever did such a work as I." 

What must be done to get an accurate understanding of the above quote? That's right; we must go to the actual source cited in order to find the nuggets of information about which Abanes conveniently neglects to inform his audience. This time, Abanes' overlooks two. One, Joseph had a particular audience that he was directing his words to. Secondly, Joseph read a scriptural passage that explained the nature of the words that he intended to speak. 

Preceding the recorded discourse, the following details are given: 

Address of the Prophet--His Testimony Against the Dissenters at Nauvoo. President Joseph Smith read the 11th Chap. II Corinthians.16 

Who was Joseph speaking against? Answer: The very people who had beaten, tarred, feathered, spit upon, and would ultimately kill him. How did 2 Corinthians 11 explain what he was going to say? Open up a Bible and take a look, paying particular attention to verses 1, 16-18, 22-23, 32-33. The Apostle Paul said: 

WOULD to God ye could bear with me a little in my folly: and indeed bear with me. (v. 1) 

I say again, Let no man think me a fool; if otherwise, yet as a fool receive me, that I may boast myself a little. That which I speak, I speak it not after the Lord, but as it were foolishly, in this confidence of boasting. Seeing that many glory after the flesh, I will glory also. (v. 16-18) 

Are they Hebrews? so am I. Are they Israelites? so am I. Are they the seed of Abraham? so am I. Are they ministers of Christ (I speak as a fool) I am more; in labors more abundant, in stripes above measure, in prisons more frequent, in deaths oft. (v. 22-23) 

In Damascus the governor under Aretas the king kept the city of the Damascenes with a garrison, desirous to apprehend me: And through a window in a basket was I let down by the wall, and escaped his hands. (v. 22-23) [underlining added] 

Understanding that Joseph had read the above to the congregation as an introduction to his address makes all the difference. In so doing, Joseph was asking the saints to "bear with him" in his "folly", while he "boasted foolishly" about his "labors more abundant, in stripes above measure, in prisons more frequent". He also wanted them to know that what he was about to say, would not be "after the Lord, but as it were foolishly." Joseph Smith planned to "glory after the flesh" as he spoke against his dissenters, just as Paul had done. He was going to mock the fools with foolishness, while simultaneously making it very clear: "WHATEVER YOU DO TO ME, I WILL ALWAYS COME OUT ON TOP!" 

Written by Michael Reed
 
  
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  From:  R/C Floats (RachelsChild)   8/7/2003 3:47 am  
To:  lifelightway   (468 of 596)  
 
  628.468 in reply to 628.465  
 
" me thinks thou dost protest too much." 

Kind of a double standard don't ya' think to accuse The Christian faith of being based on men's opinions But LDS men got it all right? 


John 3:5 is clearly not teaching Baptism. Read the whole conversation of Jesus and Nicodemus in context. Verse 4 asks the question "...can a man be born when he is old ? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb?" Only humans can be saved, angels do not inherit salvation by faith. Jesus was simply affriming what a human birth consists of....water. verse 6 confirms what human flesh can and cannot do. Human flesh (born in the water of their mother)cannot go to heaven unless they are born of the spirt. Why does Jesus NOT tell Nicodemus in verses 7-21 to be baptized? verse 22 begins another time frame...Jesus is no longer with Nicodemus, these verse have no contextual connection to John 3:1-21 

Your defintion of prophecy is obscure. Yes, Joel does say men and WOMEN will prophecy ( can LDS women prophecy, can they write new scripture? can they inherit salvation and the full priveledges of heaven without a husband?) Does not LDS teach we are in the last days, the falling away has already come. Why hasn't this verse come to fruition in your own LDS practices? 

Revelation wiill never make sense if you believe the things spoken of have already taken place...another false teaching of some men. 

R/C 

 
  
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  From:  clrose1   8/7/2003 6:34 am  
To:  R/C Floats (RachelsChild)   (469 of 596)  
 
  628.469 in reply to 628.450  
 
The bible has been mistranslated quite a number of times. Look at all the versions of the bible that have been translated and say something that is a little bit different. I beleive most of the major things that are in there is correct and that man can come closer to God with it than without it. There are contradictions in the Bible. We need to read it though despite those and learn from it. The Bible is not the complete word of God either. We have other scripture that is also the word of God, and I doubt that God is done with us still. That is why there is a prophet of God on the earth. 
In no way does this belittle the bible. The more I learn, the more I appreciate the bible, and I love that book highly. I have a deep respect and reverence for the bible.
 
  
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  From:  clrose1   8/7/2003 6:35 am  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (470 of 596)  
 
  628.470 in reply to 628.454  
 
First of all Bob was referring to the spirit of Jesus Christ. 
  
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  From:  lifelightway   8/7/2003 11:57 am  
To:  R/C Floats (RachelsChild)   (471 of 596)  
 
  628.471 in reply to 628.468  
 
Christian theologians have long wrestled with the question, What is the destiny of the countless billions who have lived and died with no knowledge of Jesus? With the Restoration of the gospel of Jesus Christ has come the understanding of how the unbaptized dead are redeemed and how God can be a perfect, just God, and a merciful God also. 
While yet in life, Jesus prophesied that He would also preach to the dead. Peter tells us this happened in the interval between the Saviors Crucifixion and Resurrection. President Joseph F. Smith witnessed in vision that the Savior visited the spirit world and from among the righteous [spirits]  organized his forces and appointed messengers, clothed with power and authority, and commissioned them to go forth and carry the light of the gospel to them that were in darkness.  

These were taught faith in God, repentance from sin, vicarious baptism for the remission of sins, [and] the gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands. 

The doctrine that the living can provide baptism and other essential ordinances to the dead, vicariously, was revealed anew to the Prophet Joseph Smith. He learned that the spirits awaiting resurrection are not only offered individual salvation but that they can be bound in heaven as husband and wife and be sealed to their fathers and mothers of all generations past and have sealed to them their children of all generations future. The Lord instructed the Prophet that these sacred rites are appropriately performed only in a house built to His name, a temple. 

The principle of vicarious service should not seem strange to any Christian. In the baptism of a living person, the officiator acts, by proxy, in place of the Savior. And is it not the central tenet of our faith that Christs sacrifice atones for our sins by vicariously satisfying the demands of justice for us? As President Gordon B. Hinckley has expressed: I think that vicarious work for the dead more nearly approaches the vicarious sacrifice of the Savior Himself than any other work of which I know. It is given with love, without hope of compensation, or repayment or anything of the kind. What a glorious principle. 

Some have misunderstood and suppose that deceased souls are being baptised into the Mormon faith without their knowledge or that people who once belonged to other faiths can have the Mormon faith retroactively imposed on them. They assume that we somehow have power to force a soul in matters of faith. Of course, we do not. God gave man his agency from the beginning. The dead who repent will be redeemed, through obedience to the ordinances of the house of God, but only if they accept those ordinances. The Church does not list them on its rolls or count them in its membership. 

Our anxiety to redeem the dead, and the time and resources we put behind that commitment, are, above all, an expression of our witness concerning Jesus Christ. It constitutes as powerful a statement as we can make concerning His divine character and mission. It testifies, first, of Christs Resurrection; second, of the infinite reach of His Atonement; third, that He is the sole source of salvation; fourth, that He has established the conditions for salvation; and, fifth, that He will come again. 

The Power of Christs Resurrection 
As regards the Resurrection, Paul asked, Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not  ? why are they then baptized for the dead? We are baptized for the dead because we know that they will rise. The soul shall be restored to the body, and the body to the soul; yea, and every limb and joint shall be restored to its body; yea, even a hair of the head shall not be lost; but all things shall be restored to their proper and perfect frame. For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living. 

It matters tremendously what we do in relation to those who have gone before, because they live today as spirits and shall live again as immortal souls, and that because of Jesus Christ. We believe His words when He said, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live. 16 By the baptisms we perform in behalf of the dead, we testify that as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.  

For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 

The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 

The Infinite Reach of Christs Atonement 
By identifying our ancestors and performing for them the saving ordinances they could not themselves perform, we are testifying of the infinite reach of the Atonement of Jesus Christ. Christ died for all. He is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world. 

God is no respecter of persons: 

But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him. 

Doth he cry unto any, saying: Depart from me? Behold, I say unto you, Nay; but he saith: Come unto me all ye ends of the earth, buy milk and honey, without money and without price. Our Lord inviteth  all to come unto him and partake of his goodness; and he denieth none that come unto him, black and white, bond and free, male and female; and he remembereth the heathen; and all are alike unto God, both Jew and Gentile. 

It is inconceivable that this invitation, universally extended in life, would be rescinded for those who had not heard it before they died. With Paul, we are persuaded that death poses no such obstacle: Neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,  shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. 

Jesus Christ, the Sole Source of Salvation 
Our anxiety to ensure that our kindred dead are offered baptism in Jesus name is testament to the fact that Jesus Christ is the way, the truth, and the life and that no man cometh unto the Father, but by [Him]. Peter proclaimed, Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved. 

There is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus. 

Some contemporary Christians, concerned for the billions who have died without a knowledge of Jesus Christ, have begun to wonder if there truly is only one Lord, one faith, one baptism. To believe that Jesus is the only savior, they say, is arrogant, narrow-minded, and intolerant. We say, however, that this is a false dilemma. There is no injustice in there being but One through whom salvation may come, when that One and His salvation are offered to every soul, without exception. We need not tamper with the doctrine or temper the good news of Christ. 

Conditions of Salvation Set by Christ 
Because we believe that Jesus Christ is the Redeemer, we also accept His authority to establish the conditions by which we may receive His grace. Otherwise we would not concern ourselves with being baptized for the dead. 

Jesus confirmed that strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life. Specifically, He said, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. This means we must repent, and be baptized every one 
 
  
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  From:  lifelightway   8/7/2003 12:07 pm  
To:  R/C Floats (RachelsChild)   (472 of 596)  
 
  628.472 in reply to 628.468  
 
<<<Kind of a double standard don't ya' think to accuse The Christian faith of being based on men's opinions But LDS men got it all right?>>> 
These men never claimed to have been instructed these teachings by the Lord. Just take a look at the history of the Council at Nicea. Nobody stood up and said, "thus saith the Lord, ..." in some kind of revelation. They debated over it and Greek philosophers won out. 

<<<Your definition of prophecy is obscure.>>> 

I am using it in the same way this Bible verse uses it. That is not obscure. 

<<<Yes, Joel does say men and WOMEN will prophecy ( can LDS women prophecy, can they write new scripture? can they inherit salvation and the full priveledges of heaven without a husband?)>>> 

Yes, women can and will prophesy. The church never said they can not never said they will not. 

<<<Does not LDS teach we are in the last days, the falling away has already come. Why hasn't this verse come to fruition in your own LDS practices?>>> 

It has. Women in our church dream dreams and see visions. It has only been 173 years since the church was restored, so I am sure there is much more to come. 

<<<Revelation wiill never make sense if you believe the things spoken of have already taken place...another false teaching of some men.>>> 

This prophecy is still taking place and will continue to take place. Just as the two witnesses are yet to prophesy in Jerusalem. 


 
  
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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    8/7/2003 12:33 pm  
To:  Bob (BOBKATZHOST)    (473 of 596)  
 
  628.473 in reply to 628.472  
 
Bob,

 

Again your Mormon Fairy Tail has worked you into another corner.

 

Of course you just conceded that the Virgin Conception of Jesus cant be the work of two physical beings so therefore Mormons have a wrong  interpretation into the Virgin Conception of Jesus.

 

Now you continue to Blaspheme by saying that Jesus is a created being just like everyone else.

 

Jesus is our High Priest according to the order of Melchizidak and Hebrews tells us that the requirement for a Melchizidak Priest is to be without beginning of days so Jesus in order to be a Melchizidak Priest has to of Always Existed and having Always Existed and not being Created He is God just as He Claimed to be.

 

Hebrews 7:3 Without Father, without Mother, without descent (no genealogy), having neither beginning of days, nor end of life, but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a Priest continually.

 

Well Bob do you still think that you are equal to Jesus and that you have the credentials according to God to be a Melchisedec Priest?

 

*BTW Mary is not the Mother of God. She is the vessel that God used to bring Himself into our physical realm but she knew that He was not created by her.

 

Luke 1:46,47 And Mary said, My Soul doth magnify the Lord, and my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Savior.

 

She knew that she was bringing Jesus (God) the savior of the world into the world.

 

David



David A. Brown
Basic Christian: Forum
www.BasicChristian.org

 
  
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  From:  Bob (BOBKATZHOST)    8/7/2003 12:59 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (474 of 596)  
 
  628.474 in reply to 628.473  
 
Please do not put words in my mouth. There is enough foot there already.

I have not conceded that the Virgin conception of Jesus cannot be the work of two physical beings. I said no such thing. I would never put such limitation on God. I have said that the exact mechanism used to impregnate Mary has not been revealed. I have said that Jesus is the only begotten of the Father in the Flesh. I stand behind these things. 

<<Jesus is our High Priest according to the order of Melchizidak and Hebrews tells us that the requirement for a Melchizidak Priest is to be without beginning of days so Jesus in order to be a Melchizidak Priest has to of Always Existed and having Always Existed and not being Created He is God just as He Claimed to be.>>

(Hebrews 7:2-3.)


For this Melchisedec, king of Salem, priest of the most high God, who met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings, and blessed him;

2 To whom also Abraham gave a tenth part of all; first being by interpretation King of righteousness, and after that also King of Salem, which is, King of peace;

3 Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually.

Interesting that you have put 2 and 2 together and have come up with 5. The verses in Hebrews describe Melchizedek not the Priesthood named after him. 

I have never said that I was the equal of Jesus. Since I do hold the Melchizedek Priesthood I do have all the credentials necessary. 

If Mary is not the Mother of Jesus, then who is?

 

 

Bob 
 
  
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  From:  R/C Floats (RachelsChild)   8/7/2003 1:17 pm  
To:  lifelightway   (475 of 596)  
 
  628.475 in reply to 628.471  
 

Is it against LDS teachings for it's members to think for themselves? Can you not just read the Bible without turning to Joseph Smith and the LDS Mormon church for your every thought on it's content? 

If I were David, I would delete your post.... this is not discussion at all. In fact it's excerpts from some Mormon publication. 

R/C 


 
  
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  From:  clrose1   8/7/2003 2:33 pm  
To:  R/C Floats (RachelsChild)   (476 of 596)  
 
  628.476 in reply to 628.475  
 
We are taught to think and pray for ourselves. 
  
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  From:  R/C Floats (RachelsChild)   8/7/2003 5:20 pm  
To:  Bob (BOBKATZHOST)    (477 of 596)  
 
  628.477 in reply to 628.461  
 

Bob, 

Joseph Smith proclaimed he had seen/talked with The Father and Jesus. (which suggests a plurality of gods) Such a position, revelation, is not possible. The Bible clearly states there is only one God.It further states that no man can see God and live. 

The Apostles were with Jesus (God the Son) when He was transfigured before them,...a father god did not come down and join the group as He was already present, incarnate! Only two others appeared unto Jesus in glory and that was Moses and Elijah. And only Jesus, Moses and Elijah spoke to one another. (Luke 9:28-36). 

Joseph Smith's account of a visitation from God and Jesus (together no less) is not in line with any Biblical doctrine/example of the nature, unity of God the Father, God the Son. 

Psalm 17;15 Yes, actually I do expect to be satisfied when I awake in His likeness... I will be looking into the eyes of Jesus, my Savior and God. 

R/C 

 
  
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  From:  Bob (BOBKATZHOST)    8/7/2003 7:47 pm  
To:  R/C Floats (RachelsChild)   (478 of 596)  
 
  628.478 in reply to 628.477  
 
Yes, Joseph Smith's vision does suggest that the Father and Son are separate and distinct personages. It is not The Father is the Son is the Holy Ghost but rather The Father, Son and Holy Ghost are separate and distinct personages who form the Godhead. It is quite possible and I believe it is quite true. The Bible clearly shows that the Father is not the Son is not the Holy Ghost. The Bible further states that Moses spoke with God eye to eye as one friend speaks to another and that Stephen saw Jesus on the Right hand of God. Jacob also saw God.

The Prophet Joseph Smith's vision is very much in line with Biblical Accounts. 

Bob 

  




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Edited 8/7/2003 10:48:37 PM ET by Bob (BOBKATZHOST) 
  
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  From:  lifelightway   8/7/2003 8:37 pm  
To:  R/C Floats (RachelsChild)   (479 of 596)  
 
  628.479 in reply to 628.475  
 
<<<Is it against LDS teachings for it's members to think for themselves? Can you not just read the Bible without turning to Joseph Smith and the LDS Mormon church for your every thought on it's content?>>> 
The only reason I accepted Christianity is because the LDS church helped me understand how the God of Christianity is just and merciful. I did not understand how God could create billions of souls out of nothing just so He could damn the grand majority of them to eternal darkness even though most had never heard of Christ. 

The redemption of the dead and a better understanding of our creation are what brought me to Christ. Without the LDS church I would still be agnostic. I was converted to the gospel about 2 years ago during my sophmore year in college. My life has been changed forever. 

I have seen my faith slandered, lied about, alienated, and all members damned by so-called Christians. I continue to witness this with a sense of awe. Some people dedicate all of their time in the pursuit of tearing down LDS faith, and they are not afraid to use methods of deceit to do it. 

Do we think for ourselves? 

Our leaders and members continuously exhort eachother to find a testimony of the restored gospel for ourselves. We are encouraged to study, ponder, and pray to Our Heavenly Father in order to recieve truth. 

We exhort eachother to live by Christ's teachings to the best of our abilities, and in doing so we learn that by living the truths of the gospel we can live healthier and happier lives. Not only that, but we can feel the power of Christ's atoning sacrifice leading us to salvation. 

Often, people of other faiths simply tell us that we are going to hell. Well, I don't think I am. Do you? 

---- 

P.S. I apologize for the other post, I honestly had the publication cited from Ensign. It was actually longer and had been truncated before I added an extra note of my own. When I applied it, the rest of the text and the "edited" note were not there. It had never happened to me before. 



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Edited 8/8/2003 12:56:49 AM ET by LIFELIGHTWAY 
  
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   From:  lifelightway   8/7/2003 9:18 pm  
To:  R/C Floats (RachelsChild)   (480 of 596)  
 
  628.480 in reply to 628.477  
 
<<<Joseph Smith proclaimed he had seen/talked with The Father and Jesus.>>> 
His account was in line with the Bible in every respect. The Son stood at the right hand of the Father. The Father stated something along the lines of, "This is my Beloved Son in whom I am well pleased, hear Him ..." 

<<<(which suggests a plurality of gods)>>> 

Curious that this is similar to Stephen's vision of Christ standing on the right hand of the Father. Also, during the baptism of Christ, God the Father said from heaven, "This is my Beloved Son in whom I am well pleased ... " 

<<<Such a position, revelation, is not possible. The Bible clearly states there is only one God.>>> 

"But he who unites himself with our Lord becomes one with him in spirit." 1 Cor. 6:17 

<<<It further states that no man can see God and live.>>> 

It states this, and then curiously every man who ever saw God in the Bible still lived. - Example (Gen 32:30)- In fact, as one author cited in that paper (non-LDS) at no time is it recorded in the Bible where a man saw God and dropped dead because of it. We understand that it is because the glory of God (the Holy Spirit) was upon them and allowed them to endure his presence. 

[Moses 1] 
2 And he saw God face to face, and he talked with him, and the glory of God was upon Moses; therefore Moses could endure his presence. 
14 For behold, I could not look upon God, except his glory should come upon me, and I were transfigured before him. ... 

The ancient Jews and Christians at the time of Christ believed that God had the form and image of a man. Why condemn us for having the same belief? 

It was the Greek philosophers who deemed this concept as outdated and primative. Do you trust them to determine the truth concerning this matter? 

 
  
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From:  lifelightway   8/7/2003 9:50 pm  
To:  boodada   (481 of 596)  
 
  628.481 in reply to 628.464  
 
I apologize for neglecting to back up my argument that there is a distinction between Paradise and Heaven. The last discussion I had about this was actually on this forum. It was deleted, but the person I was discussing this with actually agreed with me right away. There is a reason he did. 
Bible Dictionary: Hades 
An English translation of the Hebrew word Shoel, hell signifies an abode of departed spirits and corresponds to the Greek Hades. In common speech it generally denotes the place of torment for the wicked, although it has been often held, both in the Jewish and the Christian churches, that Hades (meaning broadly the place of all departed spirits) consists of two parts, paradise and Gehenna, one the abode of the righteous and the other of the disobedient. Gehenna, or Gehenna of fire, is the Greek equivalent of the valley of Hinnom, a deep glen of Jerusalem where the idolatrous Jews offered their children to Moloch (2 Chr. 28: 3; 2 Chr. 33: 6; Jer. 7: 31; Jer. 19: 2-6). It was afterwards used as a place for burning the refuse of the city (2 Kgs. 23: 10), and in that way became symbolical of the place of torment (Matt. 5: 22, 29-30; Matt. 10: 28; Matt. 18: 9; Matt. 23: 15, 33; Mark 9: 43, 45, 47; Luke 12: 5; James 3: 6). Expressions about hell-fire are probably due to the impression produced on mens minds by the sight of this ceaseless burning, and are figurative of the torment of those who willfully disobey God. [end] 

(Again in the Easton's Bible dictionary - non-LDS ) 

Hell/Hades - derived from the Saxon helan, to cover; hence the covered or the invisible place. In Scripture there are three words so rendered: 

Sheol, occurring in the Old Testament sixty-five times. This word sheol is derived from a root-word meaning "to ask," "demand;" hence insatiableness (Prov. 30:15, 16). It is rendered "grave" thirty-one times (Gen. 37:35; 42:38; 44:29, 31; 1 Sam. 2:6, etc.). The Revisers have retained this rendering in the historical books with the original word in the margin, while in the poetical books they have reversed this rule. 
In thirty-one cases in the Authorized Version this word is rendered "hell," the place of disembodied spirits. The inhabitants of sheol are "the congregation of the dead" (Prov. 21:16). It is (a) the abode of the wicked (Num. 16:33; Job 24:19; Ps. 9:17; 31:17, etc.); (b) of the good (Ps. 16:10; 30:3; 49:15; 86:13, etc.). 

Sheol is described as deep (Job 11:8), dark (10:21, 22), with bars (17:16). The dead "go down" to it (Num. 16:30, 33; Ezek. 31:15, 16, 17). 

The Greek word hades of the New Testament has the same scope of signification as sheol of the Old Testament. It is a prison (1 Pet. 3:19), with gates and bars and locks (Matt. 16:18; Rev. 1:18), and it is downward (Matt. 11:23; Luke 10:15). 
The righteous and the wicked are separated. The blessed dead are in that part of hades called paradise (Luke 23:43). They are also said to be in Abraham's bosom (Luke 16:22). 

Gehenna, in most of its occurrences in the Greek New Testament, designates the place of the lost (Matt. 23:33). The fearful nature of their condition there is described in various figurative expressions (Matt. 8:12; 13:42; 22:13; 25:30; Luke 16:24, etc.). [end] 

Me: 
I agree that "Hell" as sometimes used for Satan and his angels is different. LDS usually call this place outer darkness. 

Of course, I believe Heaven does in fact exist right now. That is not what I meant. I just meant that, in a general sense, the inhabitants of the earth wait until judgement (after the Millenium) until they are placed into whatever glory God places them (or no glory at all). 

In the meantime, the repentant await the resurrection in Paradise, which technically is not Heaven. Before the thief may enter Heaven itself, he must in some way be baptized if he hadn't been already. 

 
  
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  From:  lifelightway   8/7/2003 10:38 pm  
To:  R/C Floats (RachelsChild)   (482 of 596)  
 
  628.482 in reply to 628.468  
 
<<<Jesus was simply affriming what a human birth consists of....water.>>> 
Why would Jesus say that you must be "born a human birth" when absolutely every man, woman, and child has done so already. This is a stretch, and I have to disagree. 

Again, we have Mark 16: 16 "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved." (it never says he that believeth and is not baptized shall be saved) 

In the tradition of Sola Scriptura, there is no Biblical explanation of how those who never hear the gospel can be baptized and saved. Except perhaps what Peter taught, the Old Testament prophecy I mentioned, and 1 Cor. 15: 29. 

Baptism for the dead is used as a proof of Christ's resurrection. If it is not true, then it is of no use as a proof. It doesn't bother me that it says "they baptize". Look at St. John 4:2. Wouldn't Jesus say that "they" (his disciples) baptize and not "we"? Especially since baptisms for the dead are performed only on dedicated grounds. 

I don't see how this can be a heretical teaching at all. 

 
  
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  From:  R/C Floats (RachelsChild)   8/8/2003 5:51 am  
To:  lifelightway   (483 of 596)  
 
  628.483 in reply to 628.479  
 
Okay, this post is good discussion material. It contains what you believe and why. Thank you. 

I will get abck to you on this. (have to be out most of the day) 

R/C 
 
  
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  From:  R/C Floats (RachelsChild)   8/8/2003 8:33 am  
To:  Bob (BOBKATZHOST)    (484 of 596)  
 
  628.484 in reply to 628.478  
 
Bob: 

Jacob wrestled with a MAN( Gen 24: 24- 30)the incarnate Jesus. (a Christophany). Jacob affirms this " for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved. He did see God manifested in human form... " a man." Previous to this Jacob, Gen.28, had a dream in which the Lord God spoke to Jacob and promised him and his descendants,divine blessing. 

Moses by contrast encountered God many times. First in the Burning Bush. ( Exodus 3) Here God is identified as the angel of the Lord,( a Theophany, God the Father in form )Here God declares to Moses, that God is, " I AM." ( Jesus also identified Himself as, " I AM ") 

The encounter of God in Exodus 33:12- 23 is quite awesome....Moses is allowed to view the "goodness" of God the Father but not the form of His face. " thou canst see my face; for there shall no man see me, and live." And Moses did not see the face of God. 

In Numbers 12: 1-8 God speaks from amidst a cloud to Miriam, Aaron and Moses vs. 8 says (of Moses) " With him I will speak mouth to mouth.......and the similitude of the Lord shall he behold." Moses did not see the face of God the Father. For no man can see it and live. 

Stephan did see the vision of God and Jesus and he did die....he did not live. John's vision of God the Father and Jesus together occured while John was transported to Heaven,he was not on earth when he saw the two together. 

Joseph Smith proclaimed he saw God the Father, face to face and Jesus too. Yet, he was not transported to heaven when he saw them, nor did he die as soon as he saw God the Father. This testimony does not line up with the Bible....a man cannot see God the Father, ( on the earth) face to face and live. Man can only see the goodness (form) or glory ( form )of God the Father and live. ( ie in the Burning Bush, in the cloud, in a dream, hidden in the cleft of a rock etc.) 

Joseph Smith had a revelation that clearly contradicts the Bible on how God reveals himself to mankind. A human being cannot see God the Father (face to face)and live to tell the tale. 

R/C 

 
  
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  From:  Bob (BOBKATZHOST)    8/8/2003 8:51 am  
To:  R/C Floats (RachelsChild)   (485 of 596)  
 
  628.485 in reply to 628.484  
 
Not at all. It is called the First Vision for a reason. He saw the Father and Son in vision not in real life. Same as Paul, Stephen, John and many others.
Bob 

 

 
  
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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    8/8/2003 2:20 pm  
To:  R/C Floats (RachelsChild)   (486 of 596)  
 
  628.486 in reply to 628.485  
 
Hi R/C

 

Thanks for the info.

 

These Mormons are really faltering and reaching for any attempt to appear credible an attempt that is failing miserably on their part!

 

Post after post reveals just how empty, shallow and pretend the entire Mormon invention is.

 

If every anyone thought that there was one sentence of legitimacy to Mormonism these discussions certainly have revealed Mormonism to be the Hoax that it is.

 

The Really Funny thing about Mormonism is that it is supposed to be some revealed knowledge so important that it was written on tablets of gold, yet post after post leave these Mormon defenders adlibbing and repeatedly inserting that they dont know, well so much for Mormonism, so much for Joseph Smith and his wisdom and so much for the whole scam of the False and Fake religion called Mormon (LDS).

 

Keep up the Excellent Posting.

 

God Bless You,
David



David A. Brown
Basic Christian: Forum
www.BasicChristian.org

 
  
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  From:  clrose1   8/8/2003 3:03 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (487 of 596)  
 
  628.487 in reply to 628.486  
 
Her post proved nothing.  
  
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  From:  R/C Floats (RachelsChild)   8/8/2003 3:08 pm  
To:  Bob (BOBKATZHOST)    (488 of 596)  
 
  628.488 in reply to 628.485  
 
Bob, 

It is not possible for a human being, residing on earth to see God the Father, face to face, and live. Appearances by God, on the earth are a Christophany, as seen by: Hagar,( Gen.16:7-13), Abraham/Sarah (Gen.18:1-14) Jacob,(Gen.32:24-30) Joshua,( Joshua 5;13-15) Gideon,(Judges 6:1-23) Monoah and wife,(Judges 13:1-23, Balaam, (Numbers 22:35) 

Jacob ( Gen.28 11/12) and Daniel (Daniel 7:1/2) had visions of Heaven while sleeping. John, Stephen and Paul were Transported to Heaven. ( and Paul and John both returned from heaven after the vision) 

Many men/women heard God speak but did not see Him face to face....even a child (samuel) heard God speak but did not see Him. 

The Bible repeatedly accounts multiple occurences of God and in not one of them says a mortal man talked to God the Father face to face. And, the ones who did see Godthe Father and/or God and Jesus together either were asleep or had been transported to Heaven. 

Joseph Smith said God the Father,and Jesus came down to him in a vision and they talked to him. ( And depending on which First Vision account is read of J. Smiths vision), he also saw an angel, a frog, a spirit, and finally God the Father and Son together. 

Joseph Smith's visions of God ( Father or Son ) by his own account, are nothing like what any other person in the Bible saw; whether they were a priest, prophet, disciple,deacon, apostle, man, woman etc. Joseph Smiths visions were not the same at all. 

R/C
 
  
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  From:  Bob (BOBKATZHOST)    8/8/2003 3:51 pm  
To:  R/C Floats (RachelsChild)   (489 of 596)  
 
  628.489 in reply to 628.488  
 
It is not only possible for man to see God, the Scriptures are replite of occurances of it happening. Adam, Eve, Abraham (possibly), Jacob, Moses, Stephen, Paul, The Brother of Jared, Joseph Smith and many others have seen God. Many Saw Jesus when He was upon this Earth.

 

Bob 

 



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Edited 8/8/2003 8:05:50 PM ET by Bob (BOBKATZHOST) 
  
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  From:  R/C Floats (RachelsChild)   8/8/2003 4:29 pm  
To:  Bob (BOBKATZHOST)    (490 of 596)  
 
  628.490 in reply to 628.489  
 
Bob; 

That is such a sweeping generalization. Please post the replete Bible verses that states any, man/woman/child, (while awake or not transported to Heaven) saw God the Father and lived. God the Son (Jesus, preincarnate/incarnate) is God in the flesh. 

R/C 

edited by R/C for clarity 



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Edited 8/8/2003 7:44:56 PM ET by R/C Floats (RACHELSCHILD) 
  
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  From:  Bob (BOBKATZHOST)    8/8/2003 5:06 pm  
To:  R/C Floats (RachelsChild)   (491 of 596)  
 
  628.491 in reply to 628.490  
 
I have already. 
Bob 

  




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Edited 8/8/2003 8:07:30 PM ET by Bob (BOBKATZHOST) 
  
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  From:  R/C Floats (RachelsChild)   8/9/2003 6:43 am  
To:  lifelightway   (492 of 596)  
 
  628.492 in reply to 628.479  
 
God is just and good! I think you have been misled on the idea of God creating millions of souls just to damn them to hell. An example of such cruelty would of course be infants/children who died or the mentally retarded. 

Romans 5;18 states: " Therefore as by the offense of one judgement came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. 

Children, the menatlly retarded are covered by the free gift of justification in Christ. This is possible because they have no understanding or responsiblity for sin, they have not reached an age of accounability. Nor is infant baptism required for them to recieve salvation...how can a child understand, comprehend the ordinance of Baptism? 

God loves little children, Jesus held them in His arms and blessed them and said, " for of such is the kingdom of heaven." What was He blessing them for a life in hell? (should they die) Any doctrine of damning children to hell, comes from the father of all lies, Satan. ( As a side note Jesus makes no mention of these children needing to be baptised. One would believe if the Savior of the world believed baptism was neccesary along side of faith to enter Heaven, He would have baptised these precious little ones right then and there.) 

It's not really important what I think about your eternal destiny; but rather, what foundation of faith have you built upon? Is it one of unmerited grace by Christ alone or grace plus baptism and works? What you believe about such matters is what God will hold you accountable for....it is your free choice to decide where you will spend eternity...whether it be heaven or Hell. 

R/C 


 
  
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  From:  lifelightway   8/12/2003 7:01 am  
To:  R/C Floats (RachelsChild)   (493 of 596)  
 
  628.493 in reply to 628.492  
 
<<<God is just and good! I think you have been misled on the idea of God creating millions of souls just to damn them to hell.>>> 
I know this, but many people do not. Is anybody going to hell? I think so. Yet if God created every soul out of nothing, knowing full well exactly what every creature would ever do or say then there is no true free agency. 

Is God not able to create beings who don't sin? Can God do anything and everything? The very concept of creation from nothingness is full of philisophical and logical inconsistency. (Not to mention scientific problems like the law of conservation of mass and energy.) 

It is the philisophical problems that I find the most repulsive. The idea that God creates human souls that He knows will be sinful and then says, "you aren't good enough." The idea that God would create any being from non-existence knowing full well that the being would end up in eternal damnation before he/she was ever created is ridiculous. 

Of course, creation ex-nihilo is an extra-biblical concept, so I don't know how sola scriptura folks can defend it. If you look up the word for "create" you will find "bara". This word is used for woodworking in many cases. So tell me, if you create a whistle out of 
wood, didn't the wood already exist? 

We understand that our universe was organized from chaos, not created ex-nihilo. I discussed further what the difference is and how important this concept is, but the hosts of this forum deleted the entire thread. I understand why, because mainstream Christian theology as we know it falls apart. 

God did not create evil. Evil simply exists and always has. 

-Stephen 

 
  
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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    8/12/2003 7:43 am  
To:  lifelightway   (494 of 596)  
 
  628.494 in reply to 628.493  
 
To create people who do not have the capability to sin (disobey) would be to create machines.

 

Machines dont sin. A gun that kills is innocent it is the motive of the person involved that is judgeable.

 

I dont think that there is any way around having the ability to sin (disobey) if you want a meaningful free will relationship.

 

If you program your computer to say I Love You what does that mean, Not Much! When another person says I Love You it means Everything!

 

David



David A. Brown
Basic Christian: Forum
www.BasicChristian.org

 
  
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  From:  Bob (BOBKATZHOST)    8/12/2003 8:29 am  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (495 of 596)  
 
  628.495 in reply to 628.494  
 
I agree completely. That is why God gave us Free Agency
Bob 

 

 
  
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  From:  lifelightway   8/12/2003 8:39 am  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (496 of 596)  
 
  628.496 in reply to 628.494  
 
I understand this. However, if God could do anything, then He could create beings who have the capability to sin, but always choose not to. 
According to your theology, would it be impossible to create a world full of Christs? A perfect world of God incarnates who never sin? 

Just curious.
 
  
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  From:  lifelightway   8/12/2003 8:48 am  
To:  R/C Floats (RachelsChild)   (497 of 596)  
 
  628.497 in reply to 628.492  
 
<<<Children, the menatlly retarded are covered by the free gift of justification in Christ.>>> 
Good. Then you agree with the following. 

10 Behold I say unto you that this thing shall ye teachrepentance and baptism unto those who are accountable and capable of committing sin; yea, teach parents that they must repent and be baptized, and humble themselves as their little children, and they shall all be saved with their little children. 

11 And their little children need no repentance, neither baptism. Behold, baptism is unto repentance to the fulfilling the commandments unto the remission of sins. 

12 But little children are alive in Christ, even from the foundation of the world; if not so, God is a partial God, and also a changeable God, and a respecter to persons; for how many little children have died without baptism! 

13 Wherefore, if little children could not be saved without baptism, these must have gone to an endless hell. 

14 Behold I say unto you, that he that supposeth that little children need baptism is in the gall of bitterness and in the bonds of iniquity; for he hath neither faith, hope, nor charity; wherefore, should he be cut off while in the thought, he must go down to hell. 

15 For awful is the wickedness to suppose that God saveth one child because of baptism, and the other must perish because he hath no baptism. 

16 Wo be unto them that shall pervert the ways of the Lord after this manner, for they shall perish except they repent. Behold, I speak with boldness, having authority from God; and I fear not what man can do; for perfect love casteth out all fear. 

17 And I am filled with charity, which is everlasting love; wherefore, all children are alike unto me; wherefore, I love little children with a perfect love; and they are all alike and partakers of salvation. 

18 For I know that God is not a partial God, neither a changeable being; but he is unchangeable from all eternity to all eternity. 

19 Little children cannot repent; wherefore, it is awful wickedness to deny the pure mercies of God unto them, for they are all alive in him because of his mercy. 

20 And he that saith that little children need baptism denieth the mercies of Christ, and setteth at naught the atonement of him and the power of his redemption. 

21 Wo unto such, for they are in danger of death, hell, and an endless torment. I speak it boldly; God hath commanded me. Listen unto them and give heed, or they stand against you at the judgment-seat of Christ. 

22 For behold that all little children are alive in Christ, and also all they that are without the law. For the power of redemption cometh on all them that have no law; wherefore, he that is not condemned, or he that is under no condemnation, cannot repent; and unto such baptism availeth nothing 

23 But it is mockery before God, denying the mercies of Christ, and the power of his Holy Spirit, and putting trust in dead works. 

24 Behold, my son, this thing ought not to be; for repentance is unto them that are under condemnation and under the curse of a broken law. 

25 And the first fruits of repentance is baptism; and baptism cometh by faith unto the fulfilling the commandments; and the fulfilling the commandments bringeth remission of sins; 

26 And the remission of sins bringeth meekness, and lowliness of heart; and because of meekness and lowliness of heart cometh the visitation of the Holy Ghost, which Comforter filleth with hope and perfect love, which love endureth by diligence unto prayer, until the end shall come, when all the saints shall dwell with God. 

Moroni-chapter 8 

 
  
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  From:  lifelightway   8/12/2003 9:35 am  
To:  R/C Floats (RachelsChild)   (498 of 596)  
 
  628.498 in reply to 628.492  
 
<<<It's not really important what I think about your eternal destiny; but rather, what foundation of faith have you built upon? Is it one of unmerited grace by Christ alone or grace plus baptism and works?>>> 
Are you going to believe what other people tell you about my faith? Faith alone does not save simply because true faith is never alone. Faith without works is dead. The Bible says so. You most likely do not understand the LDS position on faith and works. We know that we will be judged by our works. 

Eccl. 12: 14 For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil. 

Faith itself is a "work". 2 Thes. 1: 11 Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of his goodness, and the work of faith with power: 

Some people simply give God lip service, which is not true faith. They deny God "in works." Titus 1: 16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate. 

We understand that true faith means obedience. Of course we realize that we sin, and will continue to sin in our lives. But we believe that we must strive to do our best and live as righteous souls in Christ. God cannot work through us if we are disobedient and filthy. 

Knowing that we are not perfect, and that we will continue to sin does not mean we can just give up. We can't say, "oh well, I am saved already so I can go ahead and keep sinning cause Christ paid for it already anyway." 

On the other hand, we know that if Christ had not paid for our sins then all mankind would be hopelessly lost forever. We believe in grace because otherwise nobody would go to heaven except Jesus. But we believe those who sin may still go to heaven if they repent. You do believe in repentence don't you? It isn't just saying you are sorry without sincerity. 

True repentence and faith is sincere. Titus 2: 7 Everything Christ taught in his ministry was about loving, giving, sharing, helping, and doing. There is a reason for this. 

Again, faith without works is dead. Despite what you have heard, we do not believe that works save us. 

<<<What you believe about such matters is what God will hold you accountable for....it is your free choice to decide where you will spend eternity...whether it be heaven or Hell.>>> 

Thank you. I believe in free-will. That is not my issue. My issue is that if God created the non-elect (out of nothing) and God is omniscient, then God knew that the non-elect would be damned before they even existed. Then God created them anyway. This would be a cruel act. Knowing that God is not cruel, I know that this theology is incorrect. 

I used to ask, "why would God punish me for the way He created me?" I rejected Christianity outright because it didn't have an answer (or at least the answer doesn't make any logical sense). Some think that God can simply "wash his hands" of His creation and no longer claim responsibility for those He created out of nothing and say "but I gave you free will." That is a cop-out and an insufficient explanation. 

The LDS church has the answers. 

 
  
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  From:  lifelightway   8/12/2003 1:23 pm  
To:  R/C Floats (RachelsChild)   (499 of 596)  
 
  628.499 in reply to 628.492  
 
<<<Any doctrine of damning children to hell, comes from the father of all lies, Satan. ( As a side note Jesus makes no mention of these children needing to be baptised. ...>>> 
Thank you. We agree completely (Moroni chapter 8). However, because of the fall of Adam, children still needed Christ so that they may be resurrected. 

What about good and honest souls who grew up "without law." There have been people who lived on the earth, billions who never even heard of Christ. Do they have any hope of finding redemption? We know that Christ is the only way by which man may be saved. How or when do these souls accept Christ? 

You may continue this discussion with Bob. I am going to South America. Good luck, farewell, and God bless. 

-Stephen
 
  
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   From:  R/C Floats (RachelsChild)   8/12/2003 4:46 pm  
To:  lifelightway unread  (500 of 596)  
 
  628.500 in reply to 628.493  
 
Every adult person has a choice to accept his Creator's terms for salvation or not. 

Also, you seem to be mixing up forknowledge as if it is the same as, God knows what we will do...(forknowledge)BUT He does not make us do it.(predestined) There is a profound difference between those two positions. 

From reading your post it would appear you hold a lot of anger against God. It's a bit arrogant don't you think to dictact to, God the Creator, what His function is or isn't? 

R/C
 
  
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From:  R/C Floats (RachelsChild)   8/12/2003 4:48 pm  
To:  lifelightway unread  (501 of 596)  
 
  628.501 in reply to 628.496  
 
No, there is only one God. 

R/C 

 
  
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  From:  R/C Floats (RachelsChild)   8/12/2003 4:54 pm  
To:  lifelightway unread  (502 of 596)  
 
  628.502 in reply to 628.497  
 
No, I don't "agree" with Moroni 8. 

R/C
 
  
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  From:  Bob (BOBKATZHOST)    8/12/2003 5:11 pm  
To:  R/C Floats (RachelsChild)   (503 of 596)  
 
  628.503 in reply to 628.501  
 
If there is only one God then which one is He? The Father or the Son or The Holy Ghost?
Bob 

 

 
  
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  From:  R/C Floats (RachelsChild)   8/12/2003 5:27 pm  
To:  lifelightway unread  (504 of 596)  
 
  628.504 in reply to 628.498  
 
No dear one, the LDS church does not have the answers.....nor does any organizational church....no church will save anyone. God does provide the answers though and He has made His way of Salvation plain, through the Bible...His living Word. 

LDS has baptism mixed in with salvation. Enormous ammounts of time and money are wasted in researching geneological records to track down dead men to baptise them.( this is part of LDS *works*. 

There is no such thing as *cheap grace* ( ie.. "I can sin cause all I want to I'm saved ") Usually,that scenario is used as a sideways argument to undermine the position of grace...free grace. 

Does LDS believe in a second baptism for memebrs they disfellowship as part of the requirement for membership again? Why is this so, if this is true? 

R/C 
 
  
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  From:  R/C Floats (RachelsChild)   8/12/2003 5:33 pm  
To:  lifelightway unread  (505 of 596)  
 
  628.505 in reply to 628.499  
 
Steve, 

I do not agree with Moroni 8. The Bible is the only text that is God inspired. 

God is just and good. I do not know how God will judge those who have not heard of Christ but he will do what is just (for them) because He is their loving Creator as well. 

r/c 
 
  
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  From:  Bob (BOBKATZHOST)    8/12/2003 5:56 pm  
To:  R/C Floats (RachelsChild)   (506 of 596)  
 
  628.506 in reply to 628.504  
 
Sorry to have to inform you but we do not Baptise the dead. Doing so would tend to mess up the font.

We also do not rebaptise those who are disfellowshipped. There is no need.

The Time and money spent on Family History is certainly not wasted. The Church provides a great service to all who would use such records. In addition, they preserve the records of mincipalities who run the risk of losing those records through mishap.

If there is no such thing as "Cheap Grace" then how do you explain the concept of once saved, always saved? If I am saved and mess up, I am still saved, so why not mess up.

Bob 

 

 
  
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  From:  Bob (BOBKATZHOST)    8/12/2003 5:57 pm  
To:  R/C Floats (RachelsChild)   (507 of 596)  
 
  628.507 in reply to 628.505  
 
How do you know that the Bible is the only text that God inspired? Where does God say that? Why would God stop talking to His Prophets when He says He would not?
Bob 

 

 
  
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  From:  R/C Floats (RachelsChild)   8/12/2003 6:26 pm  
To:  Bob (BOBKATZHOST)    (508 of 596)  
 
  628.508 in reply to 628.506  
 
Haha... yes, a messy font indeed! Okay, baptise in proxy... on behalf of: the deceased, dead, expired, etc. Also, if I found, in researching my geneology, members of my family who were baptised in proxy by Mormons, could I have them removed from the roles of proxy baptism? 

Do any Mormons (non LDS) rebaptise those who have been disfellowshipped? 

Family History is interesting and accurate records are important for civil government to function in good order. Still, for non LDS, geneology, is of no value for the soul's hereafter. 

What municipalities does the LDS Church keep records for? State of Utah or other states? Is the Church financially compensated for doing so. 

Once saved, always saved means just that. ...God seals our salvation. Anyone can sin, saved or not but to those whom God has sealed, He will bring us to repentence. The Holy Spirit dwells in us and convicts us of sin. 

R/C 

 
  
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  From:  Bob (BOBKATZHOST)    8/12/2003 7:59 pm  
To:  R/C Floats (RachelsChild)   (509 of 596)  
 
  628.509 in reply to 628.508  
 
Baptising the dead is a favourite joke. Based upon your phrasing I just could not resist. 

I know that certain Jewish Groups object to the LDS baptising those who died especially during the holocaust. I know the Church has removed some ordaniences from the records. One Example is Anne Frank who has been baptised numerous times.  The problem I have with this is that I am busy doing the ordanience work for my kindred dead some of whom died in the holocaust (I am Jewish). I would be extremely upset if someone negated the Ordaniences that I stood in Proxy for. 

Whether you can have that done for your kindred dead or not I don't know. 

We believe that the research that we do and the Ordaniences that we stand in proxy for helps all, LDS and Non. I figure that if that is so, fantastic. If that is not so, I have wasted some of my time and done the dead no harm.

I am not sure which municipalities the Church keeps record of. I suspect that it is a safe bet that Utah is there. I would not be surprised if many states, cities and countries have their records in the vaults. The Church offer is almost too good to pass up. It costs nothing. The Church comes in and Microfilms (fiche?) the records  and then sends a copy to the municipality. If the copy is destroyed they can get new one free. THese records might be digitized and put on the computer now. I am not sure.

I am unaware of what other Churches do with those they disfellowship. In the LDS Church there is no reason to rebaptise those that are disfellowshiped for they are still members. They have some things to work out to be brought back into full followship.

So if you cannot become unsaved, what about the guy or gal who does not repent? or sins against the Holy Ghost?

Bob 

 

 
  
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  From:  R/C Floats (RachelsChild)   8/13/2003 5:07 am  
To:  Bob (BOBKATZHOST)    (510 of 596)  
 
  628.510 in reply to 628.509  
 
Bob, 

Concise language is vital in expressing thought. ( it's the best tool we have) so fair enough in you calling me to task on poor grammar usage. 

The numerous baptisms on behalf of the deceased is what I was referring to as one of reduntant *works*. (tracking down endless geneology) 

I would think it most reasonable for Jews to object to being baptised (by proxy) in any Non Jewish facility, especially in the name of Jesus Christ. 

For myself, I am grieved to think that I could be , in my case,rebaptised by future progeny, who may come under LDS teaching to intiate such a practice. It would be an attack, an insult, to the personal faith and testimony, I have NOW with Jesus Christ. 

It would appear the storing of info by the various muncipalities within LDS vaults,is a win win. Civil government has an accurate, safely stored, record of deaths/births. The LDS Church has full access (in lieu of payment) to chronicle the data, in the aiding of efforts by LDS members to search for descendants to baptise by proxy. 

If a person has truly experienced salvation, (asked The Father, for the pardon of sin thru the shed blood of Jesus Christ, on our behalf) God then covers all our sin, past,present,and future....that is His unmerited grace towards us....He cleanses us from all unrighteousness. However, in the mean time, the Holy Spirit convicts us of daily sin so we can experience full fellowship with God. We can and will loose rewards in heaven for carnal living (and bring shame to God on this earth for doing so) BUT God remains faithful to His committment to securing and sanctifying our salvation. 

I am pressed for time this AM but will answer your question further about this subject of grace and of the sin against The Holy Spirt. 

R/C 




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Edited 8/13/2003 8:16:11 AM ET by R/C Floats (RACHELSCHILD) 
  
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  From:  clrose1   8/13/2003 6:04 am  
To:  R/C Floats (RachelsChild)   (511 of 596)  
 
  628.511 in reply to 628.504  
 
You seem to assume that one needs to baptize the dead to be saved. If that is what you are thinking, you would be wrong. 
  
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  From:  clrose1   8/13/2003 6:05 am  
To:  R/C Floats (RachelsChild)   (512 of 596)  
 
  628.512 in reply to 628.504  
 
Disfellowshipment does not require re-baptism, but excommunication would. This is because through this repentance process, in excommunication, your blessings are taken from you. 
  
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  From:  clrose1   8/13/2003 6:10 am  
To:  R/C Floats (RachelsChild)   (513 of 596)  
 
  628.513 in reply to 628.510  
 
On the otherhand, if you take away something that your ancestors see as very important for you, then you would in essence be attacking what they believe in. The thing is, even though they will have been baptized for you, you don't have to accept it. They know when they do this baptism by proxy that you may not accept it.  
  
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  From:  R/C Floats (RachelsChild)   8/13/2003 7:18 am  
To:  Bob (BOBKATZHOST)    (514 of 596)  
 
  628.514 in reply to 628.503  
 
Bob, 

Sorry, I missed this question last PM. The One is: God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit. (Isaiah 9:6,1 John 20;28, Peter1:2,Heb.1:8 Heb.9;14, Acts 5:3-4.) 

R/C 

 
  
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  From:  Bob (BOBKATZHOST)    8/13/2003 8:04 am  
To:  R/C Floats (RachelsChild)   (515 of 596)  
 
  628.515 in reply to 628.510  
 
I believe the concept of Endless Genealogies is the idea of changing one's Genealogy to link up with someone famous. Knowing one's family history is very good. After all the Bible has a good record of the Genealogy of the peoples living during that time. 

I am sure that after you die, someone will serve as Proxy for you to be baptised. After that happens you will be able to choose to accept it or not.

The Family History stored in SLC is available to all, LDS or not. The Church also has a website  that allows all to search for their family.

If I understand what you are telling me, I have to ask the Father to pardon my sins with the blood of Jesus in order to be saved. This is telling me that I have to do something for salvation. What then happens to the concept of Grace? If I have to do something to be saved, then Grace is diminished for I have to work for my salvation.

If we lose rewards in heaven for our actions then how can our salvation be complete?

Bob 

 




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Edited 8/13/2003 5:26:02 PM ET by David (DAVIDABROWN) 
  
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  From:  Bob (BOBKATZHOST)    8/13/2003 8:08 am  
To:  R/C Floats (RachelsChild)   (516 of 596)  
 
  628.516 in reply to 628.514  
 
OK so God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost are this ONE.

Does this mean they are one personage? One body? 

They are ONE what?

Bob 

 

 
  
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  From:  Minister Falcon (OSMFalcon)     8/13/2003 12:12 pm  
To:  lifelightway unread  (517 of 596)  
 
  628.517 in reply to 628.497  
 
Hello Lifelightway,

I too do not agree with this doctrine.  Let's compare it to the bible.  

Moroni 8:
10 Behold I say unto you that this thing shall ye teachrepentance and baptism unto those who are accountable and capable of committing sin; yea, teach parents that they must repent and be baptized, and humble themselves as their little children, and they shall all be saved with their little children. 

Holy Bible:
Romans 3:21-26
21 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 
22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference; 
23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 
24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 
25 whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, 
26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus. 

Moroni 8:  
11 And their little children need no repentance, neither baptism. Behold, baptism is unto repentance to the fulfilling the commandments unto the remission of sins.

Holy Bible:
Leviticus 26:40-42
40 'But if they confess their iniquity and the iniquity of their fathers, with their unfaithfulness in which they were unfaithful to Me, and that they also have walked contrary to Me, 
41 and that I also have walked contrary to them and have brought them into the land of their enemies; if their uncircumcised hearts are humbled, and they accept their guilt-- 
42 then I will remember My covenant with Jacob, and My covenant with Isaac and My covenant with Abraham I will remember; I will remember the land.

Moroni 8:
12 But little children are alive in Christ, even from the foundation of the world; if not so, God is a partial God, and also a changeable God, and a respecter to persons; for how many little children have died without baptism!

Holy Bible:
[too much to copy]
Romans 6
Romans 7:8-25 

1 Corinthians 15:22
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. 

John 3:3-8
3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."  
4 Nicodemus said to Him, "How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?" 
5 Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 
7 Do not marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born again.' 8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit."

Moroni 8:
12 But little children are alive in Christ, even from the foundation of the world; if not so, God is a partial God, and also a changeable God, and a respecter to persons; for how many little children have died without baptism!

Holy Bible:
Acts 10:34
34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:KJV

You get the picture pretty much by what the Holy Bible has to say.  There is so much error in this doctrine, I would be careful to compare and see the truth in what the Lord has presented to you.  We ought to obey God rather than men. Acts 5:29



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Edited 8/13/2003 3:13:11 PM ET by Minister Falcon (OSMFALCON) 
  
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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    8/13/2003 2:23 pm  
To:  lifelightway unread  (518 of 596)  
 
  628.518 in reply to 628.499  
 
Hi,

 

There are no Sinless People and defiantly no little christs. 

 

Since the fall of Adam and Eve we are all in the image of Sin as this is the Image we have Inherited from our forefathers.

 

Jesus is God, He has never sinned He took on the appearance of a Human. He came to interact with us. Man rejected Jesus and killed Him on the Cross. God knowing previously that He would be rejected used His death to cover our sins.

 

Therefore to become Sinless in Image our sins have to be under the blood of Jesus and then when God looks at our sins He sees His blood, His Righteousness and Not our Sins.

 

You Mormons have really messed up when it comes to the Priesthood. You are trying to grab glory and attention for yourselves and have made your priesthood one of Instant Insanity.

 

For instance It is Always the Sacrifice and Only the Sacrifice that is Examined by the Priest. The Sinner is Never Examined because the sinner is a known sinner. You Mormons in your Foolish System have created a meaningless system of bondage where you of course examine the Sinner i.e. have the Temple Bishop or whatever give a notice that the attendee is paid up in tithes and can therefore enter the Mormon Tabernacle.

 

Your Priesthood is defiantly one of your weakest areas in regards to true Christian Theology and Im going to have Great Fun having a field day by revealing how silly it is.

 

David



David A. Brown
Basic Christian: Forum
www.BasicChristian.org




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Edited 8/13/2003 5:28:36 PM ET by David (DAVIDABROWN) 
  
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  From:  Bob (BOBKATZHOST)    8/13/2003 2:32 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (519 of 596)  
 
  628.519 in reply to 628.518  
 
Hate to tell you but the Mormon Tabernacle is open to everybody.
Bob 

 

 
  
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   From:  R/C Floats (RachelsChild)   8/13/2003 4:09 pm  
To:  clrose1   (520 of 596)  
 
  628.520 in reply to 628.511  
 
Hi, 

No, I think you have misunderstood my thoughts on LDS baptism. 
(regular and proxy) 

Mormon doctrine presents this scenario: 

A. Salavtion comes thru repentence but only for past and present sins. 
B. Baptism is then required as part of the requirements for repentence. 
C. Good works must be done to further secure/prove the above. 

Repentence (required) + baptism (required) + good works (required) = salvation. R + B + GW = salvation. 

R/C
 
  
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From:  R/C Floats (RachelsChild)   8/13/2003 4:13 pm  
To:  clrose1   (521 of 596)  
 
  628.521 in reply to 628.512  
 
Thank you for clarifying the distictions. I don't belong to a faith that ex communicates...we only disfellowship. 

I have an aquaintence who had told me she had been thrown out of LDS church and would have to be rebaptised etc. to be in fellowship again. 

R/C
 
  
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  From:  R/C Floats (RachelsChild)   8/13/2003 5:05 pm  
To:  clrose1   (522 of 596)  
 
  628.522 in reply to 628.513  
 
Hi, 

Well, lets just rewrite history to our own choosing if we don't like or accept what our ancestors have or haven't done! I don't view baptism by proxy as benign, it is imposing upon the dead. 

R/C
 
  
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  From:  R/C Floats (RachelsChild)   8/13/2003 5:08 pm  
To:  Bob (BOBKATZHOST)    (523 of 596)  
 
  628.523 in reply to 628.516  
 

Three Persons, eternal, united in the Godhead. 

R/C 
 
  
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  From:  Bob (BOBKATZHOST)    8/13/2003 5:13 pm  
To:  R/C Floats (RachelsChild)   (524 of 596)  
 
  628.524 in reply to 628.523  
 
So we are in agreement. Three Personages, Separate and Distinct forming a Godhead. To me Eternal is a relative term. As far as this Earth is concerned, they are Eternal.
Bob 

 

 
  
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  From:  R/C Floats (RachelsChild)   8/13/2003 5:46 pm  
To:  Bob (BOBKATZHOST)    (525 of 596)  
 
  628.525 in reply to 628.515  
 
Bob, 

I enjoy genealogy. It is meaningful; fun also to to find out who's who in the lineage. Yes, the Bible has a perfect recording of genealogy to ensure the validity of Jesus' Davidic descent. ( as well as His divine lineage) 

We loose rewards in Heaven in regards to our not fullfilling good works. Our good works come from the Lord, which He gives us to do. (after salvation)Actually, Scripture says we will place our crowns,(rewards for good works)at His feet, for His glory, not our own. 

God gives His grace to us, unconditional and free. (unmerited favor) Grace exists,it is a state of being; it is not a reward for something we can earn. None of us are worthy of God's favor or could ever become righteous enough to stand in His presence, we are sinful, depraved, human beings, we can't save ourselves. God is His great love for His creatures, stepped out of eternity and into time to redeem us from the penalty of sin. To accept or reject God's plan/offer of salvation is not a "work". God's grace is not diminished by our acceptence of His offer of pardon, grace. 

R/C 

edited r/c insert 



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Edited 8/13/2003 9:18:09 PM ET by R/C Floats (RACHELSCHILD) 
  
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  From:  Bob (BOBKATZHOST)    8/13/2003 5:59 pm  
To:  R/C Floats (RachelsChild)   (526 of 596)  
 
  628.526 in reply to 628.525  
 
Jesus' genealogy is cronicled twice in the NT. It is interesting that the two do not agree. Why that is I am not sure. There is a lot more genealogy recorded in the bible than Jesus'. I do not believe that all of it is there to ensure Jesus' line back to David. Rather I believe that Genealogy is very important to God and He has had it recorded from Adam and Eve on. 

We lose rewards in Heaven by doing Good Works? That does not make any sense. I would think that we lose rewards by not doing Good Works. Why would God reward us for not doing what He has asked us to do?

If we have to do something to gain Salvation then it is not Free, not by Grace. Why do you consider Accepting/Rejecting God's plan not a Work? 

What happens to those many millions/billions who have never had the opportunity to accept or reject God's plan? Are they lost though no fault of their own?

Bob 

 

 
  
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  From:  R/C Floats (RachelsChild)   8/13/2003 7:06 pm  
To:  Bob (BOBKATZHOST)    (527 of 596)  
 
  628.527 in reply to 628.526  
 

Bob, 
We do not know specifically how God will reconcile the accounts of those who had no ooportunity/knowledge of His plan of salvation. We do know He is a kind and loving heavenly Father and will judge those souls according to His righteous character....it will be just and merciful. 

Rejecting or accepting God's offer to be pardoned for sin isn't doing anything but believing in what God has done on our behalf. What work is done by us to believe in and accept/reject God's pardon? How have we gained by works, something we cannot achieve (a pardon for sin) on our own merits? 

You are correct, we loose rewards by not doing all the good works God has in mind for us to do. ( I have edited the post) Untill we are resurrected, we can still sin....disobey God. 

The two different accounts of Jesus lineage are Joseph's and Mary's. Both were descended from David. Legally ,( where both parents are Jewish) *Title* comes from the paternal side. Joseph by marriage to Mary, was a legal father to Jesus and Joseph descent from Solomon via David, extended Royal Title to Jesus. Mary was descended from David thru his son Nathan's line..... Jesus was (via Mary) of the literal flesh/seed of David. 

God knows who everyone is and who they descended from, He doesn't need written records for His benefit. Biblical genealogy was recorded for our benefit and stands as a witness to God's divine plan ( first recorded in Genesis)for our redemption. The need for genealogy to be accurately recorded for the Jewish priesthood is no longer required. Jesus under the new coveneant(sp?)is our great High Priest 

Well, it's getting late here, I've had a very active day and I'm starting to get,uh,duh,de brain cramps... :)...over and out. 

R/C 



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Edited 8/13/2003 10:09:35 PM ET by R/C Floats (RACHELSCHILD) 
  
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  From:  Bob (BOBKATZHOST)    8/13/2003 7:41 pm  
To:  R/C Floats (RachelsChild)   (528 of 596)  
 
  628.528 in reply to 628.527  
 
May I suggest a way for God to reconcile these accounts? 

Peter talks about Jesus going to those who died before him during the three days in the tomb. I believe that He went there to begin the teaching of the people who died with no knowledge of Him to give them an opportunity to learn enough to accept or reject the plan. We believe that certain ordaniences are absolutely necessary and must be performed on this Earth. One of those is Baptism and this is the reason for Baptism for the (not of the) dead.

Still accepting God's offer is doing something, so how is that Grace?

I believe that after we are resurrected we still have the ability to sin but the consequenses for such action is much more severe. We do not lose our Free Agency upon death.

I agree that the Genealogies in scripture is for our benefit. I do not believe that any of the Scriptures are there for God's benefit. They exist for our benefit. 

I hope you had a good night and are looking forward to a fun day.

Bob 

 

 
  
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  From:  R/C Floats (RachelsChild)   8/14/2003 2:48 am  
To:  Bob (BOBKATZHOST)    (529 of 596)  
 
  628.529 in reply to 628.524  
 
The Bible bears testimony to three Persons... united. I don't know what personages means but the three Persons don't form a Godhead, They are the Godhead. 

We live in time, eternity has no beginning or end. God created in Gen.1, *time*. 

R/C
 
  
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  From:  R/C Floats (RachelsChild)   8/14/2003 4:40 am  
To:  Bob (BOBKATZHOST)    (530 of 596)  
 
  628.530 in reply to 628.528  
 
Bob, 

1 Peter 3: 18-22 refers back to the conditions surrounding mankind in Genesis 6. verse 8 says,>>>" But Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord."<<<< Grace preceded Noah's obedience in building the Ark. 

Hebrews 11:6 states:....>>> " but without faith it is impossible to please him..."<<< verse 7 records: >>> " By faith Noah being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house...."<<<<< 

Moses already had saving faith before God instructed him to build the ark. The bulding of the ark, which took a 120 years, was a witness to the disobidient men of that time, of Noah's faith in God. 
Our baptism is a witness to mankind of our fellowship with God, our willingness to identify with His death and resurrection. 

The flood is the water referred to in 1 Peter 3:20 and God did indeed save Noah from the waters. Isaiah testifies in Isa. 43 1b-2a...>>>>"...fear not for I have redeemed thee, I have called thee by thy name: Thou art mine. When thou passeth through the waters, I will be with thee...."<<<<< 

In verse 19 of 1 Peter 3 Jesus went to the spirits who were bound in prison. These spirits are not human but angelic. Peter is taking us back to Gen. 6;1-3. Angels have no means of salvation and cannot be baptised. 

God cannot abide with sin...there is no sin in Heaven. And I will post verses form Scripture to clarify that. I'll have to think about the free will/agent position(post resurrection) but "I'll be back"...Arnie is from your state, yes? 

R/C 

 
  
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  From:  clrose1   8/14/2003 6:05 am  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (531 of 596)  
 
  628.531 in reply to 628.518  
 
The tabernacle can be entered by everybody. So can the new conference center. 
  
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  From:  clrose1   8/14/2003 6:23 am  
To:  R/C Floats (RachelsChild)   (532 of 596)  
 
  628.532 in reply to 628.520  
 
After one repents of his sins (and I am talking of true repentence) he/she quits that particular sin. When one chooses to follow the Savior then they desire to be baptized. After the baptism, the person still desires to follow Christ, and proves that he/she has accepted the Savior by doing good works. It is not these three things that save you. the salvation comes because of Jesus Christ... These things are things He has asked us to do, so we do them out of love for our Savior, not just so we can make it back to Him. When we fail on our good works, we continue to repent. 
  
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  From:  clrose1   8/14/2003 6:26 am  
To:  R/C Floats (RachelsChild)   (533 of 596)  
 
  628.533 in reply to 628.521  
 
When one is excommunicated from the church (or disfellowshipped) they are told they need to continue to come to church and meet with the bishop on a regular basis. This is to help the person come back to the fold and repent of their sins. 
  
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  From:  clrose1   8/14/2003 6:29 am  
To:  R/C Floats (RachelsChild)   (534 of 596)  
 
  628.534 in reply to 628.522  
 
If you don't believe the LDS have authority to baptize, then baptism in no way imposes upon the dead, because it would not be recognized. On the other hand, if the LDS do have the authority, then it is an imposition because they need to choose to accept the Savior or reject Him. It is, after all the persons choice in these matters. 
Remember, the LDS do not consider the people who are baptized by proxy as members of the LDS church. They simply do the baptisms in the hope that all of our brothers and sisters will accept the gospel of Jesus Christ (even though we know that they all won't).
 
  
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  From:  Bob (BOBKATZHOST)    8/14/2003 6:50 am  
To:  R/C Floats (RachelsChild)   (535 of 596)  
 
  628.535 in reply to 628.529  
 
Eternity has no beginning nor end to us. Since God existed before we do I suspect His concept of Eternity and Time is different than ours. I believe that Peter mentions something about this. 

Yes the Father, Son and Holy Ghost are the Godhead. No disagreement there. I consider them three separate and distinct persons (or personages) that hold the title of God that are within that Godhead. 

Bob 

 

 
  
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  From:  Bob (BOBKATZHOST)    8/14/2003 6:58 am  
To:  R/C Floats (RachelsChild)   (536 of 596)  
 
  628.536 in reply to 628.530  
 
Moses did have an Ark. I don't think it took him 120 years to build it. 

19 By which also he went and apreached unto the bspirits in cprison;

(New Testament | 1 Peter 3:19)

How do you know that the spirits spoken of in 1 Peter 3:19 are angelic and not human? Reading the context it seems to me that Jesus taught those who were killed in the flood. Are you saying that these are angels that were killed? 

I agree that God can abide no sin which is why I said that the consequences for sin in the hereafter (or the pre-existance) are so severe. Lucifier found that out the hard way.

Bob 
 
  
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  From:  R/C Floats (RachelsChild)   8/14/2003 6:14 pm  
To:  Bob (BOBKATZHOST)    (537 of 596)  
 
  628.537 in reply to 628.536  
 

Genesis 6:1-3 seems to strongly indicate there was a co- mingling of female human flesh and fallen angels. ( see Jude 6 ) Whatever these peculiar marriages were made up of,they somehow corrupted the race and their their offspring were exceedingly evil. So much so, that God destroyed them all, except Noah and family. 

2 Peter 2: 4-5 ... "God did not spare the ancient world.....bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly." Why would God , not sparethe wicked ,destroy the wicked,the ungodly and then have Jesus preach to them salvation? They could have found grace as Noah did but chose not to. Hebrews 11;7 commends Noah for fearing God. Jesus said in Luke 17:27 that 'the flood came and destroyed them all." There are no second chances after death when people willfully reject God. Isaiah 55; 6 states...Seek the Lord while He may be found. Call upon Him while he is near.' (NKJV) 

What was Jesus preaching when he went to these spirits in prison, (see Jude 6) we do not know. Scripture explains Scripture and from the above texts we can conclude Jesus was not preaching to human souls. 

I don't believe in the pre existence of any but God. Gen.1:1, In the beginning ( our beginning) God created..."(also vs 27). God made Adam from the dust of the earth, and breathed life into him. Eve was made from Adam. Neither descended from a pre existent state. 

Angels are a different order of creation from human flesh. They cannot receive salvation. Isaiah 14;12-21 gives us a pretty goood glimpse of Lucifer in eternity past. 

R/C 

PS Genesis 6:3 is where the thought of 120 years given for the preparation of the Ark stems from. That God was giving these evil men 120 years till judgement. But I'm not dogmatic about it having to be interpreted that way. 



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Edited 8/14/2003 9:21:45 PM ET by R/C Floats (RACHELSCHILD) 
  
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  From:  Bob (BOBKATZHOST)    8/14/2003 6:32 pm  
To:  R/C Floats (RachelsChild)   (538 of 596)  
 
  628.538 in reply to 628.537  
 
I do not beleive that the Sons of God who are mentioned in Gen 6:2 are the Fallen Angels spoken of in Jude. I believe the fallen angels are the 1/3 ofthe host of Heaven that were cast out with Lucifer. They do not have physical, mortal bodies and therefore could not take the daughters of men as wives. 

Rather I believe that we are the Sons of God. I think 6:2 is a poetic way of saying that the children of Adam and Eve married each other and multiplied. 

Peter says that Jesus taught them. I suspect they were not exposed to the truth during their mortal lives. 

There are a number of Scripture verses that indicate a pre-existance. I beleive that Adam and Eve were in the Pre-existance along with all of us. 

I do not accept that Angels are a separate creation from us. I do not accept that they cannot receive salvation. 

Bob 

  




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Edited 8/14/2003 9:33:35 PM ET by Bob (BOBKATZHOST) 
  
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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    8/15/2003 12:06 pm  
To:  Bob (BOBKATZHOST)    (539 of 596)  
 
  628.539 in reply to 628.538  
 
Well,

 

Im a booking a Visit so we will see just how far an infidel can actually go into your Public places.

 

PS. Ill be the infidel a toting a camcorder.

 

David



David A. Brown
Basic Christian: Forum
www.BasicChristian.org

 
  
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   From:  David (DavidABrown)    8/15/2003 12:22 pm  
To:  Bob (BOBKATZHOST)    (540 of 596)  
 
  628.540 in reply to 628.539  
 
Bob,

 

Apparently you cannot Accept Anything Biblical probably because you are not a part of Gods kingdom you are an outsider!

 

Fallen Angels/demons are Not eligible for Redemption. Im sure you think that you have more knowledge, compassion and mercy than God but rest assured you Dont.

 

Gods ways are the Best ways, that would be the Real God of the Bible and not the invented god of Mormon minds.

 

Hebrews 3:16 For verily He (Jesus) took not on Him the nature of angels; but He took on Him the seed of Abraham.

 

Since God could only die Once and He took on the nature of Humans and Not the nature of Angels the two obviously are different!

 

But you already knowAll of this about Sacrifice and Priesthood being that you are a priest.

 

David



David A. Brown
Basic Christian: Forum
www.BasicChristian.org

 
  
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 From:  Bob (BOBKATZHOST)    8/15/2003 7:40 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (541 of 596)  
 
  628.541 in reply to 628.539  
 
Please do come. The Redlands Temple is open for visitors. I was there today. Beautiful place. You will be most welcome. You can get more information at xxxx

 

Sorry but you will have to leave the camcorder in your car.

Bob 



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Edited 8/16/2003 5:10:58 PM ET by David (DAVIDABROWN) 
  
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  From:  Bob (BOBKATZHOST)    8/15/2003 7:43 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (542 of 596)  
 
  628.542 in reply to 628.540  
 
I have no idea what you are talking about. I did not say that fallen angels are eligable for redemption. 

I do hold the Priesthood of God, but I have no clue where you are getting the concepts that you think I have been stating. 

Yours in Christ

Bob 
 
  
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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    8/16/2003 2:18 pm  
To:  Bob (BOBKATZHOST)    (543 of 596)  
 
  628.543 in reply to 628.541  
 
Just like I thought!!

 

You Mormons if you did have a true genuine message you would want people to video your facilities and rituals but instead you are a Cult hiding your Evil deeds in darkens and you do not want them revealed.

 

Thanks maybe Ill add Redlands  to my list, but for right now I plan on visiting Utah, Salt Lake City anyhow.

 

David



David A. Brown
Basic Christian: Forum
www.BasicChristian.org

 
  
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  From:  Bob (BOBKATZHOST)    8/16/2003 3:06 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (544 of 596)  
 
  628.544 in reply to 628.543  
 
Go for it. Enjoy yourself in SLC. I would make it a point to visit Temple Square. Take the tour. You will be able to use your camcorder on the tour. 
Bob 

 

 
  
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  From:  clrose1   8/18/2003 8:50 am  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (545 of 596)  
 
  628.545 in reply to 628.543  
 
It has nothing to do with hiding. It has everything to do with sacredness. All who choose to go to the temple can go inside the temple through following the commandments that God has set forth. It is not secret. If it were secret, it is one of the worst kept secrets in the world. 
  
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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    8/18/2003 10:10 pm  
To:  clrose1   (546 of 596)  
 
  628.546 in reply to 628.545  
 
It certainly has noting to do with Godliness!

 

God said to do our deeds in the open.

 

Mormons therefore are Not doing Gods deeds!

 

David



David A. Brown
Basic Christian: Forum
www.BasicChristian.org

 
  
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  From:  clrose1   8/19/2003 6:44 am  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (547 of 596)  
 
  628.547 in reply to 628.546  
 
It is done openly, in the temple. Anybody can make themselves worthy to go and see what is done in the temple. 
  
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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    8/19/2003 6:57 pm  
To:  clrose1   (548 of 596)  
 
  628.548 in reply to 628.547  
 
Anybody can make themselves worthy 

 

There is the Joke of  (LDS) Mormonism.

 

No-one can make themselves worthy. That it what the Cross, Death, Blood, and Resurrection of Jesus does for us.

 

Again with Every Post the Mormons reveal that they are a Cult with No understanding or concept of Christianity and that they completly lack a Loving relationship with God.

 

It is Very Sad that you are so Lost!

 

Just to further demonstrate that your (LDS) ways are foolish, please instruct us in how one does go about making themselves worthy to walk upon the carpet of a sacred Mormon room.

 

David

 



David A. Brown
Basic Christian: Forum
www.BasicChristian.org

 
  
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  From:  Bob (BOBKATZHOST)    8/19/2003 8:14 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (549 of 596)  
 
  628.549 in reply to 628.548  
 
That is quite so, however my friend CL was talking about attending the Temple. Anyone can make themselves worthy to Enter the Temple of the Lord. 
Bob 

 

 
  
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  From:  clrose1   8/20/2003 5:47 am  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (550 of 596)  
 
  628.550 in reply to 628.548  
 
OK... I said that wrong. Anybody can make themselves worthy through the Lord Jesus Christ. You see, part of the thing is that the gift of the Holy Ghost is given to all LDS members. It becomes so much a part of you that it is a natural occurance to want to do good. You don't feel good when you are doing wrong, and you feel great when you are doing right. 
I will not stand for your criticism of what is good and right. You have shown no love or compassion for people who believe differently than yourself.
 
  
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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    8/20/2003 7:54 am  
To:  clrose1   (551 of 596)  
 
  628.551 in reply to 628.550  
 
As a Mormon (LDS) you said it right, and you got caught by a Christian as making a Foolish un-Christian statement and now you are yelping and trying to cover your tracts but the facts are that Mormons are playing a Foolish game.

 

I could go on and on about how useless it is to get Mans (Mormons) approval.

 

With your Mormon approval you might walk the halls of Mormonism but you will NEVER walk the Streets of Gold in Heaven that is reserved for the Real Saints of Christianity.

 

David



David A. Brown
Basic Christian: Forum
www.BasicChristian.org

 
  
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  From:  clrose1   8/20/2003 8:12 am  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (552 of 596)  
 
  628.552 in reply to 628.551  
 
No LDS person believes that we are saved by what we do on this earth. We do believe that we need to do the best that we can after accepting Christ as our Savior. Christ does expect people to do good works for faith if it has not works is dead, being alone. 
I am not yelping and trying to cover my tracks. I stand by what I said. It seems it is you that is nit-picking over words. I know what I meant and you don't. this is exactly how you and your type take things out of context. You don't understand what we believe and so you decide what we believe instead. This is not a Christ-like attitude coming from you. You never give people a benefit of a doubt, and think you know all. Well, guess what? You don't. You don't even know the half of it. 

I am not after any mans approval. I need no mans approval. I accept Christ as my Savior and do the best I can to be obedient to Him. I will be there in Heaven with my Savior, whether you believe it or not.
 
  
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From:  Minister Falcon (OSMFalcon)     8/20/2003 12:43 pm  
To:  clrose1    
 
    
 
Hi Clrose,

Mixing the doctrine of Jesus Christ and doctrine of man will pollute your walk with Christ.  Here is a quote from The Master's Table radio show in Milwaukee.  The title of the radio message was How Do I Love Thee?

'Deuteronomy 11:16 warns us to pay attention to and listen to God, if you fall short of listening and obeying, your heart will be deceived.  You see if the heart is deceived, the works or your services will bear evil fruit.  You will be led away, turned aside and serve the wrong doctrine of Jesus Christ.  It will be a bogus doctrine in which you will be obeying man, instead of God and your love will be scattered toward other gods.  In the Christian world, we dont think it is possible to be scattered toward pagan worship.  We reason, of course this is not Africa or India where there are a million demigods being worshipped.  This is America, where we dont believe in that hoodoo voodoo nonsense.  Christians consider themselves civilized and sanctified.  Yet, the truth is the little demigods of the Eastern cultures just changed their names to suit the needs of the culture.  Dont let yourself be deceived by the name change.  Deuteronomy 11:17 warns us if your heart becomes deceived that God can and will shut up the heavens, the place where you obtain your daily provisions, your spiritual and physical prosperity, and your eternal hope.  When the flower of Gods garden is not nourished, not growing; it rots and dies and finally cast into the fire.'

'It is with great care that you should keep all His commandments, especially devoting your heart and soul to Him by walking in all His ways, not in some but in all His ways and holding tightly to Him. The enemy of God is bound and determined to trip you up by causing false doctrine and teaching to capture your heart away from the truth of the doctrine of Jesus Christ.  For example, there has been a steady invasion of false prophets and false teachers in the church body in these last days.  This is not a new ploy on the part of Gods enemy; it was done the same way in Deuteronomy 13.  The false prophet would dream and give visions as a sign or wonder and give a directive to the hearer to go after other gods and goddesses and serve them.  The Lord warned His people not to listen to these deceivers.  Yet God allowed the false prophets to dream and have visions coming from the imaginations of their perverted hearts.'

'God tests or manifests truth in your hearts to show you that you are need to pull up in your behavior and repent from your evil traditions.  It is a test to show you whether you love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul.  If you dont you will be deceived and become a deceiver.  The prophet or dreamer who provides this false information will be put to death, which is a spiritual death.  In the OT they actually were stoned to death because they sought to turn Gods people away from the Lord.  This Lord, who redeemed His people from the house of bondage from the land of Egypt, does not want you to be enticed to fall from the faith walk He has designed for you.  So you must put evil far away from your eyes, ears, and hands.'

'Now this same scripture also tells us that this false prophet and dreamer arent the only ones that will entice you away from the Lord; it will be one in close proximity to you.  It will be your brother, your son or daughter, your wife or your friend who will persuade you by corrupt reasoning.  God clearly states that you are not to sanction or listen to their leading, nor pity him when judgment comes upon him, nor spare or conceal his sins from exposure.  You are not to be complicit in his sin.' 
 
From:  clrose1   8/20/2003 1:06 pm  
To:  Minister Falcon (OSMFalcon)    (554 of 596)  
 
  628.554 in reply to 628.553  
 
OK... You see, I don't believe I am mixing the doctrine of Jesus Christ with the doctrines of man. I have accepted Christ as my Savior and was baptized unto Him. I have turned my life over to God and do everything I can to follow Him continually. I recognize that I have weaknesses that get in the way. I repent of those weaknesses and continue to try and improve myself through the Holy Spirit so I can feel comfortable around Jesus in the next life. It is only through His atoning sacrifice that we are able to be with Him. without Christ taking up my sins, I could never make it on my own.  
  
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  From:  Minister Falcon (OSMFalcon)     8/20/2003 2:01 pm  
To:  clrose1   (555 of 596)  
 
  628.555 in reply to 628.554  
 
Hi again,

All that you said so elouqently about your walk with Christ may be very true.  But you must understand, that the doctrine in ANY religious demonination is man's doctrine and not the doctrine of Jesus Christ.  It isn't that Morman's should be the only ones that should be cautious but all demoninational faiths should be cautious for the doctrine they mix with that of Jesus Christ.

If you follow the doctrine of the Book of Mormans AND that of Jesus Christ, you then are mixing doctrines.  

Historically I am related to Brigham Young.  Mormanism has been in my family line.  And I have read the Book of Morman and found that even though it reads like scripture, sounds like scripture, it is not true scripture of Jesus Christ.  

I am not saying this for a matter of offense to your beliefs.  I am saying this to ALL who believe additional doctrines to augment the doctrine of Jesus Christ.  I have had to change my viewpoint, my logic, and man's wisdom I have learned to put on the mind of Christ in accepting only ONE doctrine.  

I accomplished this by taking what I thought was sound doctrine and compared it to the Holy Bible.  What I found not to be sound doctrine, I dismissed from my belief system.  Finally ,after multiple years of study, I found that many religious belief systems walk contrary to or walk similar to but not the same as the Holy Bible.  My studies included eastern and all western belief systems, Mormons included.  When I was given the truth, I was set free from all forms of eastern and western belief systems.  I stick with the Holy Bible only; it is the way of safety.

When you are grounded in the teachings of the Holy Bible you are apt to hear and see in truth.  When you are given additional beliefs, some true, some mixed, some out there...you can see the err.  However, when one is grounded in both doctrines at the same time, it is difficult to see any differences.  This is spiritual blindness.

Now if you or anyone else reads this statement that come from mainline church doctrines; I challenge you to this exercise.

Read and study the Holy Bible ONLY and follow all that it tells you to do for 3 to 6 months.  Ignore all your denominational teachings and beliefs.  Do not follow them.  THEN after you have done this, go back and compare doctrines see if you can ascertain err in your denominational teachings.  If you can, then you know what you must do....follow the doctrine of Jesus Christ ONLY and spit out the bones of false doctrine.

 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Edited 8/20/2003 5:04:34 PM ET by Minister Falcon (OSMFALCON) 
  
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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    8/20/2003 8:34 pm  
To:  clrose1   (556 of 596)  
 
  628.556 in reply to 628.554  
 
In order to follow Jesus you will have to renounce Mormonism, the two are incompatible.

 

You will need to follow Jesus, to Drink of His communion to do His works and to follow Only His Priesthood to receive His Completed Atoning Sacrifice.

 

You Mormons are just like the man Esau who was denied the Promise of the kingdom of God even though he sought it with tears because his works were not of God.

 

The Kingdom of God is given only to the Children of Jacob Israel those who are Governed by God Mormons are governed by man and therefore cannot receive the Kingdom of God.

 

Sorry but after all of your efforts and all of your staged practices of religion your only inheritance is in the outer darkness because all along you do not have God.

 

Again if you did have God you would do the things of God and Reject the things of man specifically the ramblings of the Very Mad and Insane, Joseph Smith.

 

David



David A. Brown
Basic Christian: Forum
www.BasicChristian.org

 
  
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  From:  clrose1   8/21/2003 6:14 am  
To:  Minister Falcon (OSMFalcon)    (557 of 596)  
 
  628.557 in reply to 628.555  
 
One of the things that you must understand is that if there is a prophet of God on the earth, and if that prophet is given revelation from God, that is also doctrine of God. I do agree that all people need to be careful and wary so that they can be with God once again. 
I am not mixing doctrines of Jesus Christ by following the Book of Mormon. It goes hand in hand with the Bible in teaching us about the dealings of God with His children, and even more than just the dealings, they teach us truth about our salvation. 

My experience with the Book of Mormon has been different than your own. I have found that I can be closer with my maker when I study all the scripture that He has given us here on earth. When any of the scriptures are not studied, I feel an emptiness. 

 
  
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  From:  clrose1   8/21/2003 6:18 am  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (558 of 596)  
 
  628.558 in reply to 628.556  
 
Mormonism is not incompatible to following Jesus Christ. I continue with recieving Christs atoning sacrifice by the following of Jesus Christ and my walk and talks with Him, here and now... The full atoning sacrifice will be realized when I am once again with Him in eternity. 
What works do you think are not of God that the LDS are doing? I find them all to be of God. They are done because of the atoning sacrifice of our Savior and our love for Him. 

I have seen no indications that Joseph Smith was mad, nor insane.
 
  
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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    8/21/2003 1:39 pm  
To:  clrose1   (559 of 596)  
 
  628.559 in reply to 628.558  
 
Every single thing about Mormonism is Evil.

You preach a married Jesus that is the Brother of Satan.

You preach that you are a brother to Jesus and Satan.

You baptize the dead.

Eat communion of water and leavened bread.

Claim to be Jews.

Claim Salt Lake to be Jerusalem.

Do not acknowledge the Oneness of God the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

Invented the weirdest and most meaningless of priesthoods.

Insist on putting people into your legalistic bondage of rules and tithes.
 and this is just a start ..


David



David A. Brown
Basic Christian: Forum
www.BasicChristian.org

 
  
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   From:  Minister Falcon (OSMFalcon)     8/21/2003 2:02 pm  
To:  clrose1   (560 of 596)  
 
  628.560 in reply to 628.557  
 
One of the things that you must understand is that if there is a prophet of God on the earth, and if that prophet is given revelation from God, that is also doctrine of God. I do agree that all people need to be careful and wary so that they can be with God once again. 

ClRose, the operative word is IF in your statement above.  The Holy Bible tells us to test the spirit giving the revelation.  Who tested the spirit who provided the prophecy through Smith and Young?  

And why is it that so many non-Morman Christians find exception to the doctrine of Mormanism because they have found that it has defied the word of the Holy Bible?  

In this thread, I compared Morman doctrine given by one of the poster to the Holy Bible and it did not line up.  I got no response to my post concerning the discrepencies found between the two doctrines.  

There were literally hundreds of prophecies written in many books concerning various things.  Yet none of them were written in the Holy Bible.  The first one gives an excerpt the other does not but relates that there are prophecies, yet all the prophecies did not make it into the Holy Bible. Here are two examples:

Jeremiah 45:1
The word that Jeremiah the prophet spoke to Baruch the son of Neriah, when he had written these words in a book at the instruction of Jeremiah, in the fourth year of Jehoiakim the son of Josiah, king of Judah, saying.....

Jeremiah 51:60
So Jeremiah wrote in a book all the evil that would come upon Babylon, all these words that are written against Babylon. 

As I challenged you to take a rest from Moromism and just read and study the Holy Bible only, you will have your eyes opened to some things that other Christians see about Moromism.  I challenge you because I challenged myself first and found the truth.  I found the truth undeniably and also found great errs in other religious doctrines.  This has kept me safe; and I wish for you this same kind of safety.      


  
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From:  clrose1   8/21/2003 2:40 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (561 of 596)  
 
  628.561 in reply to 628.559  
 
LDS do not preach a married Jesus. There is speculation that he may have been married, but that is all it is. 
As to a brother to Lucifer... Yes, He is... So are each of us... There is nothing evil in that. Hitler is also a brother of us as well as Saddam and many other evil people. Just because a brother chooses evil does not mean that we do. 

Clarify the baptizing the dead... We do proxy baptisms for the dead... They don't have to accept the baptism. Even Jesus did a proxy atonement for each of us. We don't need to accept that either. 

The Lord has revealed that it is the symbolism of partaking of the bread and wine that is important. This is not an evil practice. 

We claim to be adopted with the Jews, we don't necessarily claim direct lineage. 

I have never heard of Salt Lake as being Jerusalem. 

We do recognize that the Godhood is in oneness. They are distinct individuals though, as can be seen when you read about the baptism of Jesus Christ as well as other places in the Bible. 

We did not invent the priesthood. You must deny that there was a levitical priesthood, as well as a higher priesthood if you think it was invented by LDS. 

We don't put people in bondage of obeying any of the Lords commandments. People choose to pay tithing because the Lord has asked them too. People choose to obey the commandments of the Lord because the Lord has asked them too. Nobody is forced to do this. 

YOu are off to a lousy start.
 
  
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  From:  clrose1   8/21/2003 2:45 pm  
To:  Minister Falcon (OSMFalcon)    (562 of 596)  
 
  628.562 in reply to 628.560  
 
Many people have tested Smith and Young being a prophet of God. This is what they do when they are converted to the gospel of Jesus Christ. LDS pray to see if things are true and get their answers through the Holy Spirit which is the way to learn the truth of all things. 
I don't understand how non-mormons find things they think go against the Holy Bible. I guess it is Satan working on them to get them to believe it is not of God. Satan certainly doesn't want people to belong to the Church of Jesus Christ. Of course he would be working overtime to stop that. Why do you think there is so much opposition to the LDS church? 

There was a time in my life that I did study only the Bible. It was longer than six months. I didn't want to believe in the LDS church... The only problem was, that it was and is the only church that I found to hold the truth (all truths). I attended the Assemblies of God on a regular basis all during my Junior and Senior years in high school. I never felt the spirit there (save one time) like I did in the LDS church. 

Been there, done that... Came back to the truth.
 
  
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From:  Minister Falcon (OSMFalcon)     8/21/2003 5:29 pm  
To:  clrose1    
 
    
 
Hi again,

I went back to the post I mentioned to you to see what I found as doctrine of error between Moroni 8 and the Holy Scriptures and perhaps you can enlighten me on the discrepancies. ~Minister Falcon

Moroni 8:
10 Behold I say unto you that this thing shall ye teachrepentance and baptism unto those who are accountable and capable of committing sin; yea, teach parents that they must repent and be baptized, and humble themselves as their little children, and they shall all be saved with their little children. [This is a twist on Acts 16:31.  Acts does not state that only little children are saved, but the whole household.  In those days that included slaves [Gentiles] within the household.  For Abram made a blood covenant with God for him and all his household including slaves.  He did not have children yet. [See Genesis 15]. ]
11 And their little children need no repentance, neither baptism. Behold, baptism is unto repentance to the fulfilling the commandments unto the remission of sins.[ Leviticus 26:40 says that the children and adults have to confess their iniquity and their fathers' iniquity. ]
12 But little children are alive in Christ, even from the foundation of the world; if not so, God is a partial God, and also a changeable God, and a respecter to persons; for how many little children have died without baptism!

[Romans 3:23 says we have all sinned and fall short of the glory of God. 1 Corinthians 15:22 says that all in Adam all die; however in Christ we shall be made alive through the John 3:3-8 born again experience.  It does not happen automatically as stated in your verse 12 of Moroni.  Baptism is does not save you, calling upon the name of Jesus Christ saves you.  Baptism is a proclamation that you are in Christ Jesus, leaving the old man behind in the watery grave and rising up in the new man as a prophecy of rising up in Christ at the resurrection of saints.]

Holy Bible:
Romans 3:21-26
21 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 
22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference; 
23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 
24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 
25 whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, 
26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus. 

Holy Bible:
Leviticus 26:40-42
40 'But if they confess their iniquity and the iniquity of their fathers, with their unfaithfulness in which they were unfaithful to Me, and that they also have walked contrary to Me, 
41 and that I also have walked contrary to them and have brought them into the land of their enemies; if their uncircumcised hearts are humbled, and they accept their guilt-- 
42 then I will remember My covenant with Jacob, and My covenant with Isaac and My covenant with Abraham I will remember; I will remember the land.

Holy Bible:
[too much to copy]
Romans 6
Romans 7:8-25 

1 Corinthians 15:22
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. 

John 3:3-8
3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."  
4 Nicodemus said to Him, "How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?" 
5 Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 
7 Do not marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born again.' 8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit."

Holy Bible:
Acts 10:34
34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:KJV

You get the picture pretty much by what the Holy Bible has to say.  CLRose1, do you see the errors in this doctrine of Moroni 8:10-12?  This is the kind of study I would like you to do for yourself. I believe that non-Mormons see the error in this doctrine of man and are in opposition to Mormonism.  I don't believe it is to just bring aggravation to your spirit, but to help you attain an understanding of what is being taught by this doctrine.

Like I said in the past, I know that mainline doctrines have errors in it, including the Assemblies of God doctrine. It is good that you studied and compared the scriptures to their doctrine.  You found out the truth.  It isn't to say that they do not love the Lord.  I believe they do.  We are told by God to study to show ourselves approved by GOD not MAN.  It is in this study that revelation knowledge will come forth.  It is what I desire for you.  

Look, I have no doubt that you love the Lord.  I do believe that you are searching for the truth. I am asking you to commit to doing this type of study comparing the Moroni doctrine [man's doctrine] to the Holy Bible [the Holy Spirit breathed on doctrine]. 

According to the Holy Bible there is only one way to test the spirit and it is found in 1 John 4:1-6.  

It is not done by feelings as you indicate by your post.  It is done by the Spirit of the Lord.  Feelings are part of the soul.  They can not be trusted, no more than your own will, or mind can be trusted.  This is why we are told to renew our minds daily, work out our salvation through fear and trembling, walk in His ways, put on the full armor of Christ, be wise as serpents [avoid conflict] and harmless as doves [full of love].  



 
From:  David (DavidABrown)    8/22/2003 3:58 pm  
To:  clrose1   (564 of 596)  
 
  628.564 in reply to 628.561  
 
Duh ..

 

If Satan is your brother why is he not a physical being like we are?

 

When and how did Satan die?

 

Satan is an angel a fallen angel and not a human and therefore not our brother.

 

Your Mormon doctrine is so weird, Im wondering do you teach that the Mormon angel Maroni has had sex with women or is married to women?

 

David



David A. Brown
Basic Christian: Forum
www.BasicChristian.org

 
  
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  From:  clrose1   8/25/2003 12:52 pm  
To:  Minister Falcon (OSMFalcon)    (565 of 596)  
 
  628.565 in reply to 628.563  
 
<<<Moroni 8: 
10 Behold I say unto you that this thing shall ye teachrepentance and baptism unto those who are accountable and capable of committing sin; yea, teach parents that they must repent and be baptized, and humble themselves as their little children, and they shall all be saved with their little children. 
[This is a twist on Acts 16:31. Acts does not state that only little children are saved, but the whole household. In those days that included slaves [Gentiles] within the household. For Abram made a blood covenant with God for him and all his household including slaves. He did not have children yet. [See Genesis 15]. ]>>> 

You should be aware that each person needs to accept Jesus Christ as their Savior in order to be saved. As the parents humble themselves as their little children, it makes it easier for the children to continue on in Christ, thus, as they continue on with this faithful attitude all people are saved with their children. This also fits in with what you are saying about the slaves. Since each person must accept or reject Jesus as the Christ for salvation, it makes it easier for them if their masters have accepted Christ. 

<<<11 And their little children need no repentance, neither baptism. Behold, baptism is unto repentance to the fulfilling the commandments unto the remission of sins.[ Leviticus 26:40 says that the children and adults have to confess their iniquity and their fathers' iniquity. ]>>> 

Leviticus isn't talking about little children. It's like this... I am still a child of my parents even though I am way past the age of being known as a child. 

<<<12 But little children are alive in Christ, even from the foundation of the world; if not so, God is a partial God, and also a changeable God, and a respecter to persons; for how many little children have died without baptism! 

[Romans 3:23 says we have all sinned and fall short of the glory of God. 1 Corinthians 15:22 says that all in Adam all die; however in Christ we shall be made alive through the John 3:3-8 born again experience. It does not happen automatically as stated in your verse 12 of Moroni.>>> 

Now look at this another way. A child does not have the ability to simply go out and accept Christ if their parents forbid it. What the difference here is, is that God recognizes that and there is an accountability upon the parents to teach the child. 

<<<Baptism is does not save you, calling upon the name of Jesus Christ saves you. Baptism is a proclamation that you are in Christ Jesus, leaving the old man behind in the watery grave and rising up in the new man as a prophecy of rising up in Christ at the resurrection of saints.]>>> 

You are correct. Baptism would never save you. It is an ordinance that God has asked of us though, and you can't be saved without it. There is a difference here if you will think about it. 

<<<1 Corinthians 15:22 
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. >>> 

No argument here. 

<<<You get the picture pretty much by what the Holy Bible has to say. CLRose1, do you see the errors in this doctrine of Moroni 8:10-12?>>> 

No, I don't see errors in the doctrine of Moroni 8:10-12. I understand the gospel of Jesus Christ. There isn't a problem between what you have put down. They go hand in hand. 

<<<This is the kind of study I would like you to do for yourself. I believe that non-Mormons see the error in this doctrine of man and are in opposition to Mormonism. I don't believe it is to just bring aggravation to your spirit, but to help you attain an understanding of what is being taught by this doctrine.>>> 

I have done this kind of study on my own, and have never seen it the way you do. I pray as I do these studies and am guided by the spirit in these studies. What you have interpretted the Bible to mean is wrong. 

<<<Look, I have no doubt that you love the Lord. I do believe that you are searching for the truth. I am asking you to commit to doing this type of study comparing the Moroni doctrine [man's doctrine] to the Holy Bible [the Holy Spirit breathed on doctrine]. >>>> 

I continually study and search for the truth whereever I find it. Like I said, when I study the scriptures together, I get different answers than you have. 

<<<According to the Holy Bible there is only one way to test the spirit and it is found in 1 John 4:1-6. >>> 

I have never listened to any spirit that doesn't confess that Jesus came in the flesh. This is what the LDS church has always taught. 

<<<It is not done by feelings as you indicate by your post. It is done by the Spirit of the Lord. Feelings are part of the soul. They can not be trusted, no more than your own will, or mind can be trusted. This is why we are told to renew our minds daily, work out our salvation through fear and trembling, walk in His ways, put on the full armor of Christ, be wise as serpents [avoid conflict] and harmless as doves [full of love]. >>> 

Did not our hearts burn within us... Hey it seems like there was some people that went by their feelings along with their studies. LDS have always told us to study it out with fear and trembling and pray for the truth. This is how the spirit testifies to us. 

 
  
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  From:  clrose1   8/25/2003 12:56 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (566 of 596)  
 
  628.566 in reply to 628.564  
 
Satan is not a physical being like us because he is a spirit brother, not a physical brother... Duh, back at ya. Satan never died. Satan was always a spirit and was denied a physical body because of His open rebellion. 
The LDS church does not teach that the Angel Moroni had sex with women nor has it taught that the Angel Moroni was married. I am not sure if he was married or not. What you need to understand is that before Moroni became an angel he was a mortal man like you and I. He may have been married and if he was married, I would suspect that he had sex with his wife. 

You don't even seem to know what you are talking about with the LDS religion... This is why you get so confused... At least I hope it is because of your ignorance of the church of Jesus Christ of latter day saints.
 
  
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  From:  Minister Falcon (OSMFalcon)     8/25/2003 2:55 pm  
To:  clrose1   (567 of 596)  
 
  628.567 in reply to 628.565  
 
Hi CLRose1,

Your verse 10 indicates through the use of words that children are already saved, while the parents have need to be saved.  The reasoning is that they should act like their little children, as if parents should follow their children in the way of salvation.  Isn't this backwards?  

Your commentary is true in the sense that parents need to be humble, honest, and forthright with God like children often are with adults.  In Acts 16:31, the parents got saved, then the whole household got saved, not automatically but by confession of who Jesus is.  

<<<11 And their little children need no repentance, neither baptism. Behold, baptism is unto repentance to the fulfilling the commandments unto the remission of sins.[ Leviticus 26:40 says that the children and adults have to confess their iniquity and their fathers' iniquity. ]>>> 

You Said: Leviticus isn't talking about little children. It's like this... I am still a child of my parents even though I am way past the age of being known as a child. 

But according to your verse 11 it says that little children need no repentance, neither baptism.  My point is that Leviticus says that we as children and as adults i.e. children of our parents, we need to confess both personal and generational sin. Whether you want to interpret this as children and/or adult children of parents, the fact remains that we ALL have to confess sin.

The age of accountability is the age when one knows right from wrong and acts upon the right or the wrong way of doing things. This is determined not by man but by God.  If you have the knowledge and the understanding, you have accountability.   You can observe this by judgment God allows upon the child during their upbringing.   

You said:  Now look at this another way. A child does not have the ability to simply go out and accept Christ if their parents forbid it. What the difference here is, is that God recognizes that and there is an accountability upon the parents to teach the child. 

What God recognizes is the head covering of the father.  If the head covering is not in accordance with righteousness then the child falls under the head covering; hence the reason for Leviticus 26:40.  Again, salvation is not automatic.  However, there is another scripture that details the difference between righteousness and unrighteousness.  If the father is unrighteousness and the son walks upright, the father's sins are not held against the son.  If the father is upright and the son is not, the son does not receive the reward of righteousness.  The reverse in both the 'IF' statements are true too, the son to the father.  What God tells us through the law that defines righteousness and unrighteousness is that ALL must come to God to be saved.  One can not be saved by the righteousness of the other; however, one can be blessed by the righteousness of another [Deuteronomy 28].

You said:  You are correct. Baptism would never save you. It is an ordinance that God has asked of us though, and you can't be saved without it. There is a difference here if you will think about it. 

Salvation is by calling upon the name of the Lord.  In times where death is eminent, calling upon the name of the Lord is sufficient for salvation.  Water baptism is not necessary for salvation.  Baptism is NOT an ordinance, it is a command for obedience, which is a submissive attitude; and a public proclamation, which is a declaration.  An ordinance is a law or statute.  Check the dictionary for true understanding; you are right there is a difference.

I see conflict in these scriptures you study and the scriptures of the Holy Bible.  It is by comparing these two that one gets in err.  By comparing the Holy Bible to itself, that is, scripture to scripture through cross-referencing that you will get the truth.  

For example, by taking one subject such as PRIDE and finding the first mention in the Holy Bible, you would label this NUMBER ONE.  Then you would cross reference all the other scriptures related to PRIDE and find the full meaning of that one scripture reference.  There are 187 scriptures to research on this subject.  In these 187 scriptures you will see the various aspects of PRIDE in behavior and in attitude.  By defining PRIDE by scripture to scripture method, you can ascertain what God was trying to convey to us in His first mention of the subject. It is the same with SALVATION, BAPTISM, and the like.  This is how you study the word of God properly and with great reward.  Anyone who has studied in this fashion comes to the same conclusion of truth.  I know of no one who has erred in their research.  

 

         





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Edited 8/26/2003 8:22:42 AM ET by Minister Falcon (OSMFALCON) 
  
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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    8/25/2003 10:46 pm  
To:  clrose1   (568 of 596)  
 
  628.568 in reply to 628.566  
 
Duh ..

 

Thats the point, Satan is an angel and has Never had the option of becoming human and Never will.

 

It is just Another false part of (LDS) Mormonism!

 

Also Mormon Heartburn does not substantiate anything.

 

David



David A. Brown
Basic Christian: Forum
www.BasicChristian.org

 
  
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  From:  Bob (BOBKATZHOST)    8/26/2003 5:27 am  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (569 of 596)  
 
  628.569 in reply to 628.568  
 
Where is there anything in "Mormon Doctrine" that says that Lucifer will ever be born and therefore become Human?

As far as "Mormon Heartburn" not substantiating anything, the Bible disagrees with you.

Bob 

  




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Edited 8/26/2003 8:28:17 AM ET by Bob (BOBKATZHOST) 
  
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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    8/26/2003 8:02 am  
To:  Bob (BOBKATZHOST)    (570 of 596)  
 
  628.570 in reply to 628.569  
 
Apparently you Mormons are confusing Angels with Humans and this is very wrong!!

 

Therefore you are confusing Holy Angels and demons and it is now easy to understand how the (LDS) has become entangled in demon  Satan worship and is the Evil, Sinful, Cult of the dead that it is.

 

David



David A. Brown
Basic Christian: Forum
www.BasicChristian.org

 
  
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  From:  Bob (BOBKATZHOST)    8/26/2003 8:34 am  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (571 of 596)  
 
  628.571 in reply to 628.570  
 
How do you figure that we are confusing Angels with Humans? You do seem to enjoy Ad Homenim insults
Bob 

 

 
  
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  From:  clrose1   8/26/2003 12:52 pm  
To:  Minister Falcon (OSMFalcon)    (572 of 596)  
 
  628.572 in reply to 628.567  
 
Little children don't have need of baptism, however, when they live past the age of accountability baptism in necessary. In our time we have been told that this age of accountability is generally eight years of age. It also does not say that parents should act as little children, rather it says that they should humble themselves as their little children. These are two different ideas. Look in the Bible and find where the Lord says to let the little children come unto Him for such is the Kingdom of Heaven. It says nothing about saved or not, it simply says children. 
You talk about the whole household being saved in Acts 16. I agree that it was saved, but where does it say that there are little children involved in that household. Also, as one comes to believe in Jesus Christ, they are baptized if they have come to the age of accountability. 

I understood your point in Leviticus talking about children, and I say to you that a little child cannot confess the Lord Jesus Christ without knowing Him. This is why an age of accountability is the only just way for God to do it. I believe it was talking to the people as a whole that had parents who had passed on because of old age. Each must confess Christ as they are able too. 

All children will be brought to God. this will happen either on this earth or after. We will all have a fair chance to accept Jesus Christ as our Savior because Heavenly Father is not a respector of persons. 

Baptism is a required ordinance. Jesus told Nicodemus he must be born of the water and the spirt. This was in reference to a water baptism. Jesus himself was baptized to fulfil all righteousness and to set us the example. 

In studying the Book of Mormon with the bible and other scriptures, I am comparing scripture to scripture. I have found contradictions in the Bible at times also. 
 
  
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  From:  clrose1   8/26/2003 12:54 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (573 of 596)  
 
  628.573 in reply to 628.568  
 
We were all angels before coming to this earth and recieving our bodies. LDS believe that Satan will never recieve a body like what we have. It is you that is in err about what you think the LDS church teaches. 
  
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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    8/26/2003 11:03 pm  
To:  clrose1   (574 of 596)  
 
  628.574 in reply to 628.573  
 
No that is Exactly where you ERROR!!

 

You are saying that unless you have a Body that a spirit being cannot come to earth but Satan is here on the earth yet he does not have a body!

 

Another reason why your Silly tales dont add up to reality.

 

You need to take a Real and Serious look at the foolish tales that you are peddling!!

 

David



David A. Brown
Basic Christian: Forum
www.BasicChristian.org

 
  
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  From:  Minister Falcon (OSMFalcon)     8/26/2003 11:40 pm  
To:  clrose1   (575 of 596)  
 
  628.575 in reply to 628.572  
 
You said:  You talk about the whole household being saved in Acts 16. I agree that it was saved, but where does it say that there are little children involved in that household. House or Household:  NT:3624

KJV - home, house (-hold), temple.


oikos (oy'-kos); of uncertain affinity; a dwelling (more or less extensive, literal or figurative); by implication a family (more or less related, literal or figuratively)

The cross reference to this particular scripture is Jeremiah 32:39 which defines the meaning of house or household. 

Jeremiah 32:39
then I will give them one heart and one way, that they may fear Me forever, for the good of them and their children after them.

You said: Also, as one comes to believe in Jesus Christ, they are baptized if they have come to the age of accountability. 

This is not automatically done in but done in as a proclamation correct?

====

You said: All children will be brought to God. this will happen either on this earth or after. We will all have a fair chance to accept Jesus Christ as our Savior because Heavenly Father is not a respecter of persons. 

Concerning this statement that all children will be brought to God either on this earth or after.  Are you talking about salvation or judgment?  If you are talking about judgment, you are correct.  For we all will be held accountable on that great day.  However, if you are talking about salvation, I have not found scripture to support this.  If you have, would you share that scripture with me?

=========

You said: Baptism is a required ordinance. Jesus told Nicodemus he must be born of the water and the spirt. This was in reference to a water baptism. Jesus himself was baptized to fulfil all righteousness and to set us the example. 

As I explained before, baptism is not an ordinance.  It is a command and a public proclamation before man and God and Satan that we [the old man] are buried with Christ in a watery grave and will rise up again as Christ is the first fruits of that great resurrection.

=======

You said: In studying the Book of Mormon with the bible and other scriptures, I am comparing scripture to scripture. I have found contradictions in the Bible at times also. 

My brethren, eliminate the Book of Mormon and just study the bible scriptures through the method I told you.  You are not going to find contradictions.  You have a third element that does not shed light on Truth.  

The Book of Morman [all man's doctrine] is like the moon that has light that beams down upon the earth, but that light source is not its own.  It is the sun that uses the moon to give light to the earth.  Even in the darkness its little light is obscure to those who are of great sight.  However, in the light of day when the sun shines, even the partially blind can see.

Truth interprets Truth, there can be no contradictions.  If you are experiencing contradictions, it means that your understanding is not complete.  It happens to all of us who study the word.  It is not the word that is wrong, it is us who lack the full wisdom, understand, and knowledge of Him who wrote Truth, Who is Truth.  This is why Proverbs tells us to GET WISDOM, GET UNDERSTANDING, GET KNOWLEDGE.  This puts on the mind of Christ.  

 

         

 
  
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  From:  Bob (BOBKATZHOST)    8/27/2003 7:50 am  
To:  Minister Falcon (OSMFalcon)    (576 of 596)  
 
  628.576 in reply to 628.575  
 
<<The Book of Morman [all man's doctrine] is like the moon that has light that beams down upon the earth, but that light source is not its own.  It is the sun that uses the moon to give light to the earth.  Even in the darkness its little light is obscure to those who are of great sight.  However, in the light of day when the sun shines, even the partially blind can see.>>

The word is MormOn. How do you know that the Book of Mormon is all Man's doctrine? For that matter, how do you know that the Bible is NOT all Man's doctrine?

I agree that the Book of Mormon is like the Moon in that its light is reflected from the source. However, I feel that the Bible is also like the Moon in exactly the same manner when you consider the Source to be God.

The Book of Mormon is a reflection of God in exactly the same way that the Bible is.

Bob 

  




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Edited 8/27/2003 11:16:42 AM ET by Bob (BOBKATZHOST) 
  
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  From:  clrose1   8/27/2003 8:44 am  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (577 of 596)  
 
  628.577 in reply to 628.574  
 
You are telling tales again. I did not say you needed a body to come to this earth. LDS understand that Satan and His angels were tossed out of heaven to earth without bodies of flesh and bone. 
It seems it is you that are peddling silly and foolish things that you think the LDS teach. What you say the LDS teach is out and out lies.
 
  
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  From:  clrose1   8/27/2003 9:18 am  
To:  Minister Falcon (OSMFalcon)    (578 of 596)  
 
  628.578 in reply to 628.575  
 
I understand what a household is. My point is that my parents household has no children (well, not until 2 weeks from now). It could've been a household with no children. This we don't know from the scriptures. 
I don't know what you meant when you asked about baptism of the age of accountability not being automatically done but rather in a proclamation. If you clarify, I will answer to the best of my ability. 

I am talking about judgement that will come to all. Each will be judged as an individual, based on individuality. It will also be based upon our knowledge and our willingness or not to accept the Savior. 

We will disagree on whether baptism is an ordinance or not. I say that it is an ordinance, and that it is a required ordinance. We baptize in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. 

I have tried studies without the other LDS scriptures. It didn't work as well, and that was the time that I found the contradictions in the Bible. The other scriptures have the further understanding that helps out the Bible, and likewise the bible helps out the Book of Mormon.
 
  
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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    8/27/2003 1:07 pm  
To:  clrose1   (579 of 596)  
 
  628.579 in reply to 628.577  
 
Then your Silly (LDS) tales do not explain how and why Holy Angels are here on earth also because they do not have a body either.

You are at this forum trying to spackle out your story and it just is not working it is really obvious to everyone that your doctrine is contrived and the whole of it is SELF CENTERED that is why you are so relentless because you think it makes you a god.

Sorry but when you do actually meet Jesus face to face he is going to set you straight that He is not the brother of Satan and that you are not His brother and I would not want to be in or anywhere near your shoes when He does.

David



David A. Brown
Basic Christian: Forum
www.BasicChristian.org

 
  
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   From:  clrose1   8/27/2003 1:20 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (580 of 596)  
 
  628.580 in reply to 628.579  
 
Our religion recognizes that there are angels who don't have a body and those that do have a body. So, once again, you don't know where you are coming from. Go to too many anti-LDS sites and you can come up with all kinds of wrong information. I guess that is the difference between you and I... I don't believe everything I read on the internet. I have a way to verify all truth that you don't seem to be able to do, or you flat out refuse too. 
I am not trying to spackle out my story in any way, shape or form. It seems that it is you that is trying to throw spackle into my house that is built upon a rock with your false beliefs about the LDS church. I don't think I am a God now... I don't understand why you think God wouldn't want everything for you that He has. Have you had parents that didn't want you to be what they are, and possibly even better? Maybe that is your whole problem. You don't see God as the loving parent that He is. 

BTW, I don't think I'll be in shoes when I meet Jesus.... Sandals maybe ;-)
 
  
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From:  Minister Falcon (OSMFalcon)     8/27/2003 2:41 pm  
To:  Bob (BOBKATZHOST)    (581 of 596)  
 
  628.581 in reply to 628.576  
 
Bob,

The Holy Bible is incomparable to any other book in history.  

If doctrine is not followed by the whole of Christianity, it is considered man's doctrine.   

There are many, many books, written by ancient and current authors that are very compelling and filled with much truth.  The Holy Spirit may have influenced some of these books as well, but it still remains that even with the influence of the Holy Spirit it is not the Holy Bible.  

You said: For that matter, how do you know that the Bible is NOT all Man's doctrine?

When the truth is in you, you recognize it as Truth.  If the Truth were in you, you would not have asked me this question.  The answer is in the Holy Bible.

2 Timothy 3:16-17
16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, 
17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work. 

It is not necessary to have any other works of any other authors to be complete and thoroughly equipped for every good work.  Man's doctrine is irrelevant.  The Book of Mormon is irrelevant.

You said: I agree that the Book of Mormon is like the Moon in that its light is reflected from the source. However, I feel that the Bible is also like the Moon in exactly the same manner when you consider the Source to be God. The Book of Mormon is a reflection of God in exactly the same way that the Bible is.

This is your opinion and I do not agree with it.  You missed the point of my analogy and perverted it to suit your beliefs.  

 

         

 
  
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  From:  Bob (BOBKATZHOST)    8/27/2003 5:25 pm  
To:  Minister Falcon (OSMFalcon)    (582 of 596)  
 
  628.582 in reply to 628.581  
 
So you are telling me that all of those who consider themselves Christian must agree upon a doctrine to determine if it has come from God? Was that true in Noah's time?

The Truth is in me which is why I recognize the Bible, Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants and the Pearl of Geat Price as Scripture.

I agree with the verse in 2 Tim however that verse does not indicate that the Bible is the Scripture spoken of there. In fact the Bible did not exist when Paul penned those words. The Verse says all Scripture. If you wish to include the Bible then you also need to include the Book of Mormon and the other revealed Scripture

The analogy you gave fits the Book of Mormon just as well as the Bible. No pervision was done.

Bob 

  




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Edited 8/27/2003 8:26:08 PM ET by Bob (BOBKATZHOST) 
  
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 From:  Minister Falcon (OSMFalcon)     8/27/2003 11:03 pm  
To:  Bob (BOBKATZHOST)     
 
    
 
You said:  So you are telling me that all of those who consider themselves Christian must agree upon a doctrine to determine if it has come from God? Was that true in Noah's time?

There is only one standard that is lifted up and that standard was laid down by God.  Isn't Jesus Christ called the Chief Cornerstone?  Isn't His doctrine from the Father the plumbline for all Christians?   I don't know any other way to explain it to you.

No laws were established in Noah's time. So what's your point with Noah? It's not applicable to the scripture in 2 Timothy for consideration to the idea of the doctrine of Jesus Christ.

If you want to consider Noah as something to talk about; then you may notice that Noah and his wife were a majority of ONE.  All others perished in the flood except for pairs of animals and his family.  Noah was the only child among the children of Adam and Eve that walked upright before God.  Again, Noah was a type of Christ, a shadow of Him was to come.

You said: I agree with the verse in 2 Tim however that verse does not indicate that the Bible is the Scripture spoken of there.

Do the cross references for that scripture and you will see that indeed it is only scripture referenced in the Holy Bible, not non-existent books such as the Book of Mormon and others.  So far I have given all the scriptures, you have provided your opinion with no scriptures.  It's time you do some work here don't you think?

You said: In fact the Bible did not exist when Paul penned those words. 

You are kidding right?  Is this what you have been learning in the Book of Mormon?  

Paul wrote much of the NT and that is the Holy Bible. The OT was already in existence and the Gospels were now the NT documenting the ministry of Jesus Christ and the ministry of the Holy Spirit.  Paul persecuted the Christians in Acts and well I guess you don't recognize this as being the Holy Bible. You just proved my point that the Truth is not in you.  

You said:  The Verse says all Scripture. If you wish to include the Bible then you also need to include the Book of Mormon and the other revealed Scripture

Just because man calls their holy books, scriptures does not mean that it is equal to or standardized by the doctrine of Jesus Christ.  That may be your point of reference, but it is not mine.  I don't advocate mixing doctrines of man and that of Jesus Christ together.  

Jesus doesn't speak to us saying He has a doctrine, but it is of His Father in heaven.  John 7:16.  Yet man has referenced His words as His doctrine.  John 18:19.

The apostle's had doctrine but it was the doctrine of Jesus Christ which was from the Father.  Acts 2:42 with Matthew 10:7-8 and Matthew 28:19-20.

All three doctrines were passed on from the Father, to His Son to His disciples in succession and are all the same doctrine. I don't wish to pollute the doctrine of Jesus Christ by the lowly wisdom of man.  You choose to, that's you, but it is not me.

You said:  The analogy you gave fits the Book of Mormon just as well as the Bible. No pervision was done.

Perhaps in your mind it fits but not in my intent.  Therefore, you have perverted what I said, what I meant, and applied it to fit your purpose.  How does that glorify the Lord thy God?

Here is what the Lord has to say about man's doctrine verses the doctrine of Jesus Christ.  I choose to obey God and this is what I advocate for all Christians to do as well.

Ephesians 4:11-22
11 And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, 
12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ, 
13 till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ; 
14 that we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine,  by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting, 
15 but, speaking the truth in love, may grow up in all things into Him who is the head--Christ-- 
16 from whom the whole body, joined and knit together by what every joint supplies, according to the effective working by which every part does its share, causes growth of the body for the edifying of itself in love. 
17 This I say, therefore, and testify in the Lord, that you should no longer walk as the rest of the Gentiles walk, in the futility of their mind, 
18 having their understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God, because of the ignorance that is in them, because of the hardening of their heart; 
19 who, being past feeling, have given themselves over to lewdness, to work all uncleanness with greediness. 
20 But you have not so learned Christ, 
21 if indeed you have heard Him and have been taught by Him, as the truth is in Jesus: 


1 Timothy 1:3-4
3 As I urged you when I went into Macedonia--remain in Ephesus that you may charge some that they teach no other doctrine, 
4 nor give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which cause disputes rather than godly edification which is in faith.

1 Timothy 6:1
Let as many bondservants as are under the yoke count their own masters worthy of all honor, so that the name of God and His doctrine may not be blasphemed. 

1 Timothy 6:3-5
3 If anyone teaches otherwise and does not consent to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which accords with godliness, 
4 he is proud, knowing nothing, but is obsessed with disputes and arguments over words, from which come envy, strife, reviling, evil suspicions, 
5 useless wranglings of men of corrupt minds and destitute of the truth, who suppose that godliness is a means of gain. From such withdraw yourself.


2 Timothy 4:3-4
3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers; 
4 and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables.


2 John 9-11
9 Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son. 
10 If anyone comes to you and does not bring this doctrine, do not receive him into your house nor greet him; 
11 for he who greets him shares in his evil deeds. 


According to the scriptures, those that do not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God.  You abide in the Book of Mormon and other so called scriptures and you shouldn't even be on this site.  

 
From:  Minister Falcon (OSMFalcon)     8/27/2003 11:25 pm  
To:  clrose1   (584 of 596)  
 
  628.584 in reply to 628.578  
 
You said: I understand what a household is. My point is that my parents household has no children (well, not until 2 weeks from now). It could've been a household with no children. This we don't know from the scriptures. 

The concordance quote explained that the meaning of that particular scripture reference for the meaning of 'house' or 'household'.  It was meant to present to you from the language of the Holy Bible it's meaning and intent. As I understood your statement to mean that the Holy Bible was not clearly defined as to whether children were present in the meaning of 'house' or 'household'.  In cross referencing Acts 16:31 with Jeremiah 32:29, we see further the exact meaning of the terms 'house' or 'household'. From this research we now know the words mean 'children' included.  Whether a household has children or not is irrevelant for when we marry, children is future and not present in the custom of the day.  You may remember that if a woman was found pregnant she was stoned to death.

You said: I don't know what you meant when you asked about baptism of the age of accountability not being automatically done but rather in a proclamation. If you clarify, I will answer to the best of my ability. 

I see I wasn't clear, sorry about that.  What I am asking you is, in your belief does a child automatically become saved and/or baptized because of the parents?  Or do children have to be taught that they must be born again, accept the Lord Jesus Christ as their Savior and Master, and be Spirit-filled?  

====

You said:  We will disagree on whether baptism is an ordinance or not. I say that it is an ordinance, and that it is a required ordinance. We baptize in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. 

The reason I labor on the word 'ordinance' is because I am coming from the point of view of the biblical term, not the term used by man today.  In the past posts, I gave professional definitions [not my own] for your enlightenment so that we would be on the same page of understanding.  Perhaps in your doctrine it is a law, but in the Holy Bible it is not a law, but a command.  There is a difference between the two.  The example I gave about the dying man who received Christ in the end, but was never baptized could go to heaven under the command, but not under the law or ordinance as you put it.  See the difference?

====

You said:  I have tried studies without the other LDS scriptures. It didn't work as well, and that was the time that I found the contradictions in the Bible. The other scriptures have the further understanding that helps out the Bible, and likewise the bible helps out the Book of Mormon.

I repeat:  My brethren, eliminate the Book of Mormon and just study the bible scriptures through the method I told you.  You are not going to find contradictions.  You have a third element that does not shed light on Truth.  

The Book of Morman [all man's doctrine] is like the moon that has light that beams down upon the earth, but that light source is not its own.  It is the sun that uses the moon to give light to the earth.  Even in the darkness its little light is obscure to those who are of great sight.  However, in the light of day when the sun shines, even the partially blind can see.

Truth interprets Truth, there can be no contradictions.  If you are experiencing contradictions, it means that your understanding is not complete.  It happens to all of us who study the word.  It is not the word that is wrong, it is us who lack the full wisdom, understand, and knowledge of Him who wrote Truth, Who is Truth.  This is why Proverbs tells us to GET WISDOM, GET UNDERSTANDING, GET KNOWLEDGE.  This puts on the mind of Christ. 

         

 
  
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  From:  clrose1   8/28/2003 6:37 am  
To:  Minister Falcon (OSMFalcon)    (585 of 596)  
 
  628.585 in reply to 628.584  
 
I don't have a problem with children included. I am talking about children that are at the age of accountability and those who are not. There could very well be a difference here. All the children may have been at the age of accountability. 
In the LDS faith, we teach the children about the gospel of Jesus Christ. They have an interview with the bishop to make sure they have at least a basic understanding of the gospel and know that they are taking upon themselves the name of Christ at baptism. The child can choose to be baptized or not. It is rare for an active LDS child to not be baptized at the age of eight, but I have seen it done because a child thought they weren't ready at the time. 

I do see the difference. I also believe part of the reason that other Christians believe that a man can go to heaven without the ordinance is because of baptism in behalf of those who have passed on. This is something that the early church knew about, but over time was corrupted through the apostasy that took place. 

As I told you... I did study the Bible for quite a long period of time without the Book of Mormon. That is when contradictions showed themselves to me. It is through the studying of the Book of Mormon with the Bible that I have been able to rectify things. The books go hand in hand. I tried your experiment. It failed. I don't stick with failed experiments.
 
  
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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    8/28/2003 11:25 am  
To:  clrose1   (586 of 596)  
 
  628.586 in reply to 628.585  
 
Yes,

 

God does want what is best for us and what is best for us is o enter into a Truthful relationship with God one acknowleging God as God and us as His creation.

 

PS. Your analysis are as pointless as your (LDS) Religion.

 

David



David A. Brown
Basic Christian: Forum
www.BasicChristian.org

 
  
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  From:  clrose1   8/28/2003 11:32 am  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (587 of 596)  
 
  628.587 in reply to 628.586  
 
It is a good thing I am in a truthful relationship with God as His creation. 
It is interesting that you turn to insult when you don't have any further ammunition. 
 
  
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  From:  seven7up   8/28/2003 1:25 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (588 of 596)  
 
  628.588 in reply to 628.579  
 
Hello David, 
I have been reading along this thread and you clearly have not been listening. For example: 

You stated: "Then your Silly (LDS) tales do not explain how and why Holy Angels are here on earth also because they do not have a body either." 

First of all, is it necessary to say "Silly" and other demeaning words in your argument? It truly adds no substance to your post, only smug arrogance. Second, it was clearly to you that in D&C 129 (a revelation given through Joseph Smith) clearly states the following idea. 

There are two kinds of beings in heaven who are called angels: those who are spirits and those who have bodies of flesh and bone. Angels who are spirits have not yet obtained a body of flesh and bone, or they are spirits who have once had a mortal body and are awaiting resurrection. Angels who have bodies of flesh and bone have either been resurrected from the dead or translated. 

There is also another kind of angel (they are not in heaven), who has rebelled and been cast to the earth to tempt the children of men. "Fallen Angels" do not have a physical body as they have rejected Gods plan of salvation outright from before the foundation of the earth. 

7up
 
  
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  From:  seven7up   8/28/2003 1:39 pm  
To:  Minister Falcon (OSMFalcon)    (589 of 596)  
 
  628.589 in reply to 628.584  
 
Pardon Me but I have been reading and would like to give my thoughts. 
I think the issue here (found in Moroni 8) was about infant baptism. The passage in the Book of Mormon is saying that this practice is an abomination. 

First of all, Baptism is a covenant with God. Infants neither understand covenants of this magnitude, nor do they understand sin and repentence. (I think mental retardation was mentioned as well. We must also consider this possibility.) 

The covenant of baptism is for those who can make a decision to follow Christ. The chapter calls infant baptism a perversion because people supposed that some infants would be saved because they were baptized and others would be damned simply because they were not baptized. 

The chapter mentions some about those who sin. Next time you see an infant, try to think of the sins that that little child has committed. What would be the purpose of baptizing an unknowing and innocent baby. 

I am not disputing that all die because of Adam. Surely this is true. So is the fact that children are alive in Christ. 

7up
 
  
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  From:  Minister Falcon (OSMFalcon)     8/29/2003 7:48 am  
To:  clrose1   (590 of 596)  
 
  628.590 in reply to 628.585  
 
You said: I don't have a problem with children included. I am talking about children that are at the age of accountability and those who are not. There could very well be a difference here. All the children may have been at the age of accountability.  

Consider this, when Moses gave the Ten Commandments, he gave it to adults.  In the honoring of the parents, it was to the adult children of aged parents first, and then it went down the line.  The reason it was given to them first is because the adult childern were commanded to care for the aged parents when they could no longer care for themselves.  We are children whether we are adult or adolecent.  For this reason, when we become born-again, we are called baby Christians and then as maturity sets in we are called children of God.  Never do you hear referred to us as adults of God.  Again, the scriptures defined house and household within the cross-references.  We can not speculate otherwise or we move in err instead of truth.

===

You said:  In the LDS faith, we teach the children about the gospel of Jesus Christ. They have an interview with the bishop to make sure they have at least a basic understanding of the gospel and know that they are taking upon themselves the name of Christ at baptism. The child can choose to be baptized or not. It is rare for an active LDS child to not be baptized at the age of eight, but I have seen it done because a child thought they weren't ready at the time. 

It is a good practice that children are taught the gospel of Jesus Christ and baptized as a matter of choice, exercising the ability to choose their readiness.  However, are they taught the doctrine of Jesus Christ only as stated in the Holy Bible?

You said:  I do see the difference. I also believe part of the reason that other Christians believe that a man can go to heaven without the ordinance is because of baptism in behalf of those who have passed on. This is something that the early church knew about, but over time was corrupted through the apostasy that took place. 

I am not certain of your understanding here.  Are you saying another's baptism will suffice for those who are unable to be baptized because they quickly pass on?  Can you be more specific here?

You said: As I told you... I did study the Bible for quite a long period of time without the Book of Mormon. That is when contradictions showed themselves to me. It is through the studying of the Book of Mormon with the Bible that I have been able to rectify things. The books go hand in hand. I tried your experiment. It failed. I don't stick with failed experiments.

Were you guided in your studies or did you do this on your own?  If you weren't guided, then I can understand why you failed.  You need one of the five-fold ministry workers to guide you as it is stated in Ephesians 4:11-16:

11 And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, 
12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ, 
13 till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ; 
14 that we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting, 
15 but, speaking the truth in love, may grow up in all things into Him who is the head--Christ-- 
16 from whom the whole body, joined and knit together by what every joint supplies, according to the effective working by which every part does its share, causes growth of the body for the edifying of itself in love. 


It would certainly be a problem for you if you were not taught by one of His inaugurated and ordained ministry workers.  Then you would not get the complete guidance you need to understand the fullness of His word.  

         

 
  
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  From:  Minister Falcon (OSMFalcon)     8/29/2003 8:07 am  
To:  seven7up   (591 of 596)  
 
  628.591 in reply to 628.589  
 
Hello 7Up,

Here are the references as given to this site for Moroni 8:10-12

Moroni 8:
10 Behold I say unto you that this thing shall ye teachrepentance and baptism unto those who are accountable and capable of committing sin; yea, teach parents that they must repent and be baptized, and humble themselves as their little children, and they shall all be saved with their little children. 
11 And their little children need no repentance, neither baptism. Behold, baptism is unto repentance to the fulfilling the commandments unto the remission of sins
12 But little children are alive in Christ, even from the foundation of the world; if not so, God is a partial God, and also a changeable God, and a respecter to persons; for how many little children have died without baptism!

You said:  I think the issue here (found in Moroni 8) was about infant baptism. The passage in the Book of Mormon is saying that this practice is an abomination. 

Verse 10 clearly states it is an advocate of infant baptism [the first bolded copy above].  It also states, that the parents must humble themselves as their children are humble and then they shall all be saved with their children.  This indicates the belief that children are already saved, but the parents are not and need to be saved through repentence and baptism.  It sounds godly but it is not God's way.  The bible references that I listed in other postings dispute these ideas. 

You said:  First of all, Baptism is a covenant with God. Infants neither understand covenants of this magnitude, nor do they understand sin and repentence. (I think mental retardation was mentioned as well. We must also consider this possibility.) 

Covenant or ordinance?  They can't be both.  The 11th verse says it fulfills the commandments.  Is this the original 10?

In verse 12 it says that little children are alive in Christ.  It is not possible to be alive then die again.  Life with Christ is everlasting and there is no end.  Following this reasoning of verse 12, then why are be commanded to be born-again by Christ?  There is too much conflict with what Jesus Christ taught us to reason this verse to be of God.

You said:  The covenant of baptism is for those who can make a decision to follow Christ. The chapter calls infant baptism a perversion because people supposed that some infants would be saved because they were baptized and others would be damned simply because they were not baptized. 

I have not been given the whole chapter, yet from these 3 verses, this book does not condemn infant baptism but advocates it.  

Thanks for your contribution. 

         

 
  
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  From:  clrose1   8/29/2003 8:19 am  
To:  Minister Falcon (OSMFalcon)    (592 of 596)  
 
  628.592 in reply to 628.590  
 
You say we cannot speculate, yet you have speculated that little children were in the house. 
Children should be taught all the gospel of Jesus Christ, even if it is from personal revelation. Children should be taught how to recieve their own revelation through prayer. 

In the part that you have a question on with baptism after others have passed on is baptism by proxy which will be done for all that desire it (and even some who don't). 

Now with the scripture that you quoted, tell me who the prophet was that taught you. During my studies, I went to various churches to see what they taught. I went to their Sunday Schools... I still find that I find the truth by putting all the word of God into my studies. It is amazing. 

It's also amazing to me that you can call some of these ministers ordained. How did they get the authority passed down from Jesus Christ. I can trace my priesthood authority to Jesus Christ.
 
  
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  From:  Minister Falcon (OSMFalcon)     8/29/2003 8:47 am  
To:  clrose1   (593 of 596)  
 
  628.593 in reply to 628.592  
 
You said:  You say we cannot speculate, yet you have speculated that little children were in the house. 

Did you not see the proof by the concordance and the cross referencing the definition of house and children?  It was not speculation on my part but study and the evidence of that study.  To speculate is not to give proof of which I am not guilty of not giving proof.

You said: Children should be taught all the gospel of Jesus Christ, even if it is from personal revelation. Children should be taught how to receive their own revelation through prayer. 

I totally agree.

You said:  In the part that you have a question on with baptism after others have passed on is baptism by proxy which will be done for all that desire it (and even some who don't). 

Can you give me evidence in the Holy Bible that baptism by proxy is a command from God?

You said: Now with the scripture that you quoted, tell me who the prophet was that taught you. During my studies, I went to various churches to see what they taught. I went to their Sunday Schools... I still find that I find the truth by putting all the word of God into my studies. It is amazing. 

I was taught by all five fold ministers, not just one.  Each office held by various people gave different perspectives since they come from different offices, yet the perspectives were biblically based not other based.  This is in addition to the teachings of the Holy Spirit.  Yet, in the teaching, there is still the responsibility on my part to take each teaching back to God for further and deeper revelation.  My mind had to conform to the Holy Scriptures of the Holy Bible.  I had to be renewed from the old man to the new man.  Their names are not important nor relevant. 

You said: It's also amazing to me that you can call some of these ministers ordained. How did they get the authority passed down from Jesus Christ. I can trace my priesthood authority to Jesus Christ.

Ok now you are sounding a bit condescending. This is the first time you have been this way with our discourse, and I hope it is not a beginning of a trend.  I don't know who taught you, nor your relationship to them.  But it certainly sounds like you have been wounded by them.  It is not my intention to defend nor condemn your former leaders since they are not here to defend themselves.  I am sorry if this is the case.  

Tracing our priesthood is easy by reading the Holy Scriptures of the Holy Bible.  It has been provided to us by God.  

         

 
  
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  From:  clrose1   8/29/2003 9:37 am  
To:  Minister Falcon (OSMFalcon)    (594 of 596)  
 
  628.594 in reply to 628.593  
 
The point is there is no way to know the age of the children in the house. No matter how much cross referencing you do. 
I can only point to the one verse that I believe you already know about on proxy baptism, and then we would argue about context and all sorts of things. It doesn't show it as a command from God, but it does show that it was a practice they at least knew about. Modern revelation from God has told us that we should do this for all. 

Who was the prophet of God that taught you? I have always relied on the Holy Spirit to teach me the truth along with my studies. I have never felt the Holy Spirit as strong as when I am studying all the scriptures of God and praying at the same time. 

What I said was not meant to be condescending. I am sorry you took it that way. What I was trying to say, is that I don't know where they got their ministery authority? I don't believe authority comes simply from the Bible... I then let you know that I can trace my priesthood line back to Jesus. It was a question that I probably worded badly. I don't feel wounded by anybody in the ministry of any other church save one, and he is a special case, with special problems that relate to the two of us. He is not one I chose to go to, but circumstances put us together. 

Thanks for your explanation despite how you felt I came across. I can understand why you felt that way after reading what I said. This is one of the problems with writing these things. We can't hear the tone always that was meant when something was said.
 
  
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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    8/29/2003 12:19 pm  
To:  ALL   (595 of 596)  
 
  628.595 in reply to 628.594  
 
Hi,

 

I think that this forum needs a well deserved rest from this continued Mormon (LDS) onslaught.

 

It is obvious that the Mormons (LDS) are only here to cause strife and division and therefore Im going to close this topic to further posting.

 

However if others do insist I will reopen it up later.

 

To all the Mormons (LDS) I Hope and Pray that you will reexamine your doctrine because it is as bad as any made up story could ever be.

 

To all of the Christians thank you very much for your Valued input I found many of your postings and points to be very insightful and helpful.

  

God Bless You,
David



David A. Brown
Basic Christian: Forum
www.BasicChristian.org

 
  
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   From:  David (DavidABrown)    9/3/2003 8:48 am  
To:  ALL   (596 of 596)  
 
  628.596 in reply to 628.1  
 
Topic Continues On ... Thread# 686.1

God Bless You,
David A. Brown



David A. Brown
Basic Christian: Forum
www.BasicChristian.org

 
 
